Tlandry Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 I really hope this video works and I can get some insight on this problem. The anti-theft system seems to be working properly, when I put my key in it flashes at a normal pace (as it says its supposed to do in the owners manual). The check engine light does not come on so I am not able to get any codes unless you all know of a code reader that will read something without the check engine light coming on. I have had this issue happen to me on 5 separate occasions, I took it to a mechanic and of course it started right up after being towed and they checked all the things you would think and nothing seems to be a problem. This car only has 60k miles and has been taken care of, I'm thinking a lemon? Video.MOV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Any code reader will check for historical codes even without a CEL, but that's probably not your issue. It sounds like the engine is turning over (cranking) just fine, it's just not starting. When it happens, does it work the second time you crank it (immediately) or does it not work at all for a short period of time? Does it usually happen in colder or warmer temps or at the same time of day (first thing in the am)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tlandry Posted November 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Yes the engine is getting power just not starting. It will continue to crank for a short period of time before it will actually start again. In this case I tried to start it yesterday at 4:30 pm and I just tried it again today at 1:55 pm and it is still doing the same thing. One time my husband was able to get it to start when in the neutral postion but not the next time so we had it towed, well the mechanic said it started right up when they got it to the shop. The first time it happend was in June just sometime early afternoon, then again in July after trying to leave the grocery store in the morning, and then late afternoon in September and now afternoon November. Yesterday I drove the car several times with it starting up fine and then tried to start it about the 5th time yesterday and what is happening in the video happened, so I don't think its related to colder temps or time of day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWPerfA_ZN0W Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 (edited) Original key fobs or have you replaced 1 or more? Original Car Battery? Sometimes the PATS will not allow the engine to start, even though it allows it to crank. Try changing out the battery in the fob(s), and/or the car battery if so. From the FSM: PATS is active only for a few seconds when the vehicle is starting. It is not a PATS concern if the vehicle stalls after it has been running for a minimum of 3 seconds. PATS will not disable a running vehicle. PATS may cause a vehicle no start due to either the fuel injectors or the starter not operating (starter relay does not close) or both. Always check for PATS DTCs from the instrument cluster and DTCs from the PCM when a no-crank or no-start condition exists. A low state of charge (SOC) in the vehicle battery may cause the PATS to allow starter operation, but prevent the fuel injectors from operating. Edited November 3, 2015 by WWWPerfA_ZN0W Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Especially if that's the original battery. Get it out of there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tlandry Posted November 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 They are original keys and the batteries have not been changed. The car battery itself was recently changed thinking that may be the issue. The cars manual says When the ignition is in the off position, the indicator will flash once every two seconds to indicate the SecuriLock system is functioning as a theft detterent. When the ignition is in the on poisition, the indicator will glow for three seconds to indicate normal system functionality. If a problem occurs with the SecuirLock system, the indicator will flsh rapidly or glow steadily when the ignition is in the on position. I tested all of those things and they are working properly so would a bad key battery allow these lights to still function properly and just not start the engine? We were thinking it had something to do with the Key but since the Anitheft lights werent acting up we started to rule that out. I've used both keys to try and both keys do this same issue that is in the video. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWPerfA_ZN0W Posted November 3, 2015 Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Definitely try changing the key fob batteries. That should be a simple & inexpensive fix. I think the life is generally what 5 years for these coin cells? So this is about the right time ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tlandry Posted November 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2015 Ok thank you, I will change those and see if it does the trick! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 PAS doesn't use the batteries in the fob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tlandry Posted November 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 PAS? are you meaning PATs? So changing the battery would not matter? The key is just a 4 button key so I was thinking the battery just worked for the lock/unlock buttons am I wrong? How do I diagnose the PATs system? I hate to get it towed again just for them to not find anything wrong with it when clearly something is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Yes PATS. The battery is only for the push buttons not starting the vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tlandry Posted November 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 So I suppose at this point I should just get it towed and hope that this time the mechanic can figure something out? It is so frustrating that a mechanic around here has no clue on to whats going on and honestly the Ford dealerships in the town I live in have a very bad reputation so I am a little reluctant to take it there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Your best bet if it happens during business hours is to have it towed immediately and hope the problem is still occuring when it gets to the dealer and have them check it right away. First thing I would check is fuel pressure - maybe the fuel pump is flaky or there's some intermittent blockage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tlandry Posted November 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Thank you, the car is going on day 3 of not starting which has been the longest its gone yet, I will be calling a tow truck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWPerfA_ZN0W Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Still cranking at the same speed in the video, though, or has the cranking speed slowed down? G/L, keep us updated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tlandry Posted November 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 It is the exact same as in the video. I will let yall know the verdict! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tlandry Posted November 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Well the car started right up and once again cant figure out what is wrong, so back to square one I guess.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWPerfA_ZN0W Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Look up a mechanic/shop with good survey ratings on yelp/repairpal/etc and let them do the diagnostics, I would say. You can drive yourself crazy with these things if you are not willing to tighten the belt and spend multiple hours at a time working down a diagnostic path. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tlandry Posted November 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Yes it is very frustrating and I am already driving myself crazy, we are worried to drive it anywhere far because we dont know when it will breakdown again. We took it to a mechanic a couple of months ago and they had it for a week trying to diagnose the problem and couldn't. They checked fuel pressure they checked the ingnition pack. They let it run because they thought it might be a heat issue and they also took it for numerous test drives. I just think it's like a computer glitch that no one can seem to find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWPerfA_ZN0W Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 (edited) Ok. So we are back to two possibilities from what I can see (from here ). A] The PATS system needs to be cleared out and the keys re-linked, and/or B] the PCM has something going on with it. Assuming of course that the batteries discussed truly check out, and that the ignition switch is 100% working fine. I still say change the batteries in the fobs, just for the heck of it, and see if that makes a difference. The cost is so minimal. EDIT: I have not heard of the PATS transceiver going bad, but that's another thing to keep in mind. Any issues you have noticed with the instrument cluster itself? IF you want to look at the transceiver (#5): Removal and Installation Remove the 3 screws and the lower steering column shroud.Position the upper steering column shroud aside.Disconnect the electrical connector and remove the PATS transceiver. NOTE: Replacement of the PATS transceiver does not require the PATS keys to be programmed into the instrument cluster again. To install, reverse the removal procedure. Edited November 5, 2015 by WWWPerfA_ZN0W 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 But a PATS problem doesn't usually allow the engine to crank at all, right? Other possibilities are the crankshaft position sensor or the PCM itself. Possibly a bad battery ground to chassis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWPerfA_ZN0W Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 No, a PATS problem will allow cranking, but will not let the injectors fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 I wonder if that changed at some point? I see older references to crank but no start, but this was quoted from the repair manual for a 2010 F150: Principles of OperationThe ignition key read process is initiated by turning the key to the ON or START position. When a valid PATS key is turned to the ON or RUNposition the PCM queries the PATS transceiver over circuit 1215 (WH/LG). The transceiver then reads the key code and sends the code to the PCM over circuit 1216 (GY/OG). The PCM then validates the read code against stored authorized keys. If the codes match, the PCM then enables the starter using circuit 1785 (LG/VT) and turns on the anti-theft indicator for 3 seconds by applying ground tocircuit 1269 (OG/RD). If the codes do not match, the starter remains disabled and the vehicle does notstart. The PCM then illuminates or rapidly flashes the anti-theft indicator by applying ground to circuit 1269 (OG/RD). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WWWPerfA_ZN0W Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 Here is what the 2007 Edge FSM says: PATS Operation The PATS function is controlled by the instrument cluster. With this type of PATS, there are parameters that need to be reset if either the instrument cluster or the PCM (or both) are replaced. Refer to Passive Anti-Theft System (PATS) Parameter Reset in this section. When the PATS key is turned to the ON or START position, the instrument cluster initiates the key interrogation sequence by sending a voltage signal to the PATS transceiver. The transceiver then uses its antenna to bounce a signal off the transponder in the PATS key. This process "reads" the PATS key identification code and sends the key identification code back to the instrument cluster, which interprets it and determines if it matches one of the stored key codes. If it does match one of the stored key codes, the instrument cluster will send a message to the PCM to ground the starter relay solenoid coil and to also allow the fuel injectors to operate. If it does not match one of the stored key codes, or it is only a partial key read or no key read, the instrument cluster will send a message to the PCM to not ground the starter relay solenoid coil and not allow fuel injector operation. The anti-theft indicator in the instrument cluster will flash (or may glow steadily) and the instrument cluster will store one or more DTCs. All elements of PATS must be functional before the vehicle will start. If any of the components are not working correctly, the vehicle will not start. If the instrument cluster must be replaced for any reason (PATS concerns or instrument cluster concerns), the PATS keys must also be programmed into the new instrument cluster. Refer to Integrated Keyhead Transmitter (IKT) Key Programming Using Diagnostic Equipment in this section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted November 5, 2015 Report Share Posted November 5, 2015 If it doesn't ground the starter solenoid relay then it shouldn't turn the engine over, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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