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Coolant vanishing, camshaft codes, is it water pump failure?


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20 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   Edgeplus

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 05:09 PM

2008 Edge Limited

"Service Engine" light came on 5 days ago and car overheated next morning. Checked coolant reservoir: completely empty for first time in 8 years. Refilled.

Had codes read at Autozone. Result: camshaft timing issue.

Checked oil: no coolant visible on dipstick/in oil, no coolant odor in oil. Oil level is slightly low. I am losing 1/2 - 1 inch of coolant from reservoir each day I drive.

One other data point: for past month I have had 'sloshing' AC noise when turning /braking plus damp passenger side floor, indicating clogged AC hose (?).

Am I looking at a bad water pump? Am I just waiting for the pump to totally fail and fill my engine with coolant? Or could it be explained otherwise?

I can't afford to spend $200 to have it evaluated at the moment, let alone thousands for water pump repairs.

Any advice?
Thanks. Greatly appreciated

Edited by Edgeplus, 20 April 2017 - 05:33 PM.








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#2 OFFLINE   WWWPerfA_ZN0W

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 05:22 PM

Unfortunately, it is VERY likely.  Luckily not failed yet, but guaranteed to do so if you keep driving the edge.

 

sloshing sound is from clogged evaporator drain, nothing to do with coolant.  Simple to unplug the drain with a can of compressed air.  the line runs along the driver side center console panel near the gas pedal.  pull back carpet to expose the tube and the joint.  have a container handy to contain the water that runs out once the joint is taken apart.  compressed air into the lower half of the tube should unclog it.  don't be stingy with the air.  service regularly for best results.  There are products like KOOLIT to help clean out the evaporator (through the upper part of the drain tube) if you so desire.

 

Also check the cabin air filter as the water can backflow into the filter and blower motor.



#3 OFFLINE   Edgeplus

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 05:49 PM

WWWPerfA_ZNOW,
What I don't understand is, can the water pump fail "gradually"? All the reports I have read about failing water pumps in Ford Edge have the pump going out completely and the engine dying all at once, without warning.
In my case, where is the coolant going if not into the oil, and what is causing the camshaft codes, etc.
How long does it typically take to fail completely, I wonder.
Thank you for your reply.

#4 OFFLINE   WWWPerfA_ZN0W

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 06:30 PM

Camshaft codes are usually caused by bad sensors/phasers/poor lubrication.  So though the oil may look ok to you, it may in fact be contaminated and breaking down, for example.

 

Unfortunately these pumps don't give much warning.  If the engine overheats, best/safest to assume a bad pump is behind it.  The computer has a strategy, limp home if you will, to air cool the engine in case it gets too hot.  So overheating ... yeah, not good.

 

Seems the seals (part metal) give way over time.  So changing the coolant regularly (not at 100K etc) might prolong the life, but no idea, just theory.



#5 OFFLINE   autom8r

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 09:50 PM

To add to what WWWPerfA_ZN0W was saying, the water pump is timing chain driven.  Any lash in the chain will result in minute changes to timing and combustion efficiency.  The ECU senses this and will store a DTC.  The shaft rotating eccentrically due to a failed seal will increase this lash beyond acceptable tolerance.

 

Seals do wear out over time.  Low coolant levels, high operating temperatures, even a technician that over-pressurizes the water jacket during a radiator test can cause the pre-mature failure of the water pump.  The pump is well designed, with an intermediate journal between two o-rings leading to a weep hole that serves as a tattle-tale.  This is probably where you are losing your water.  Soon the outer gasket will fail, resulting in oil contamination.

 

14845303.jpg

 

The slot in the lower left of the picture (toward radiator when installed) is the journal where coolant will seep, indicating inner seal failure or shaft seal failure.  A leak here, combined with the DTCs is a good indicator of impending water pump failure. The coolant is directed out on the left (radiator) side of the engine.

 

153689-2011-water-pump-failure-zz1660964

 

 

2hoKQCC.jpg?fb

 

 

Excerpt from the service manual is attached for your reference.  

 

How many miles are on your Edge and what kind of oil are you using?

Attached Files


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#6 OFFLINE   WWWPerfA_ZN0W

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Posted 20 April 2017 - 10:07 PM

that the Gen 1 (2007-10) and Gen 1.5 (2011-14) pumps for the 3.5/3.7 have a few differences.

 

The Gen 1 pump has 1 row of teeth, the 1.5 has 2.  The vanes are also different.  macbwt can go into more detail.

 

Motorcraft PW538 or AA5Z-8501-D for Gen 1

AA5Z8501D-FRO.jpgAA5Z8501D-BOT.jpg

 

Motorcraft PW515 or DG1Z-8501-A for Gen 1.5

AT4Z8501A-FRO.jpgAT4Z8501A-BAC.jpg


Edited by WWWPerfA_ZN0W, 20 April 2017 - 10:18 PM.

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#7 OFFLINE   macbwt

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 05:50 AM

The seal on the shaft may not have failed yet but with the DTC your coolant is leaking out.  The water pumps I cut in half with a Flowjet Water cutting machine and dissected both failed at the shaft seal resulting in failure.  Working on a video to be posted which will explain the theory I have on the failure based on the inside view of the water pump.

 

Stop driving it and repair the water pump. Waiting will only result in a complete engine failure and even more expensive repairs (engine replacement)


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#8 OFFLINE   Edgeplus

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 11:15 AM

WWWPerfA_ZN0W, autom8r, macbwt, thanks very much for your replies.

I am in a position where I rely on my car to drive only a quarter mile back and forth to work each day. I can't walk the quarter mile due to medical reasons.

If I have the coolant and oil flushed, replace oil, leave coolant empty, can I drive the Edge 1/4 mile to work and just pull the Edge off road if it starts getting hot? I know this spends crazy, but as long as the Edge has fresh uncontaminated oil and the coolant system is empty, the water-pump/contamination problem is averted, correct? I mean literally only driving the Edge 1/4 mile a day in this state, and letting engine sit and cool if it gets warm. Laborious, but unharmful?
I have to be able to get to work in order to afford these repairs.
Thanks for your wonderful replies. I appreciate it.

#9 OFFLINE   IWRBB

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 12:03 PM

NOOOOO!  Do not drive it without coolant.  You will destroy the engine.  

 

Autom8r- thanks for posting that about the weep hole.  It's been said on here it exists, but I've never seen it documented.  I'm going to find it and mark it with a paint pen at the next oil change.  


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#10 ONLINE   akirby

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 12:15 PM

That is an interesting scenario.   I'm sure it won't overheat within a 1/4 mile but I'm not sure if a total lack of coolant would affect anything else internal to the engine.  Obviously the water pump doesn't matter.  If you decide to do that I'd recommend testing it in the driveway idling first.



#11 ONLINE   akirby

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 12:36 PM

On second thought not a good idea.  Even without coolant circulating the coolant in the block absorbs the heat from the engine.  Without it the engine would get very hot almost instantly.  Maybe using water instead of coolant and changing the oil frequently would help.



#12 OFFLINE   Edgeplus

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 05:07 PM

IWRBB, even driving only small distance and shutting off engine (every 200 yards, if need be) when the temperature needle starts climbing?
As long as I keep the needle out of the red, the engine is safe, yes?
I am not mechanically inclined, obviously, but I had assumed this was correct.

#13 OFFLINE   Edgeplus

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 05:10 PM

Akirby, that is a thought. If I get a cheap oil change every week, could I safely drive a mile a day, I wonder. To get to work.
Thank you.

#14 OFFLINE   Edgeplus

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 05:10 PM

Thanks everyone in this thread for your excellent and kind respones. No one at the garage I visited was even aware of this unique Ford Edge water-pump issue. Your expertise is an invaluable resource.
I hope I can save my car, based on what has been said.

#15 OFFLINE   macbwt

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 06:04 PM

Those cylinder walls are going to get hot fast. Then you will end up with a destroyed engine.  The oil will not be able to make up for the lack of coolant.



#16 ONLINE   akirby

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 07:35 PM

The problem is the engine temp gauge only reports the coolant temperature, not the temperature of the cylinder walls.

#17 OFFLINE   Edgeplus

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 08:28 PM

Autm8r, thanks so much for posting all that information. I know what's happening now, at least.
The Edge has 170,000 miles and it has always taken Valvoline full-synthetic. I've been very good about the oil maintenance.
Weird thing is that I never had a single problem with the vehicle until this past year a few things went wrong (rear wheel bearing, door ajar light staying on, AC not blowing, blower motor).

Edited by Edgeplus, 21 April 2017 - 08:58 PM.


#18 OFFLINE   Edgeplus

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 08:46 PM

macbwt, so you are basically saying that if I drive it at all, I'll probably kill the engine?

If I flush the engine and get fresh oil, would I still kill it driving < 1 mile a day for a week or so, in your opinion? Probably impossible to say, I know.

I took the Edge to Firestone after watching your excellent YouTube video about P0016 codes & coolant loss. They had no clue about the Ford Edge water-pump issue and when I tried to explain the fact-pattern from your video, they told me to take it to the Ford dealership -- basically told me to "get lost." Lol.

I really love this car and don't want to lose it. Wish this weren't such a devilish engine-destroyng problem, with no short-term "patch-up".

I thought at the very worst I had a bad radiator and would need to spend a few weeks without AC. Never suspected my perfectly functional Edge could be reduced to junk in 3 days!

Thanks so much for your help and your great videos. They are a godsend.

Edited by Edgeplus, 21 April 2017 - 08:49 PM.


#19 OFFLINE   Edgeplus

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 08:46 PM

..

Edited by Edgeplus, 21 April 2017 - 08:47 PM.


#20 OFFLINE   WWWPerfA_ZN0W

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 11:19 PM

Make repairpal.com, yelp.com, and dealerrater.com.  I.E., do your research, and you can find a good non-dealer shop to work with.  Cheaper that way.  And change the timing chains/phasers while in there (keep the old parts).

 

What is the coolant change history?  Ford says first around 105K I think, then every 60K, so at least 2 changes should have been done by now.  I feel the first change comes too late, but that's just me.






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