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Performance vs. other "similar" SUV's


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#1 OFFLINE   Bamm1

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 05:04 PM

Performance numbers for the 2015 Ford Edge Sport AWD:

  • weight: 4437lbs
  • 315 hp / 350 tq
  • 0-60: 5.6
  • 0-100: 14.8
  • 1/4 mile: 14.2 @ 98 mph
  • skidpad: 0.83g
  • 70-0: 176 ft.

Performance numbers for the 2018 BMW X3 M40i:

  • weight: 4308lbs
  • 355 hp / 369 tq
  • 0-60: 4.4
  • 0-100: 11.2
  • 1/4 mile: 13.0 @ 107 mph
  • skidpad: 0.85g
  • 70-0: 158 ft.

The ST will have 20 more hp and 30 more ft-lbs of tq.  It will also now have an 8-speed transmission along with improvements in the suspension, brakes, etc. I doubt the weight will change at all.  So the M40i will likely keep its 100+ lb. weight advantage.

 

How close to the M40i will it be able to get? 

 

The ST has to make up over a second to 60 and in the 1/4 mile (vs. the previous gen Sport).   Can it get within 3/4 of a second of those times? Maybe even less? The ST has less HP, so it will not be able to match the trap speed.  The biggest discrepancy is that the M40i gets to 100 mph over three and a half seconds faster than the Sport.  Tuned Edge Sport's are not even close to as fast as the stock M40i (in all measures).

 

The BMW had summer tires in the test above so just including those on the Sport should be able to partially reel in the skidpad numbers and braking distances.  With the ST "tweaks" I would expect it to exceed those numbers.


Edited by Bamm1, 26 January 2018 - 05:07 PM.








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#2 OFFLINE   Mikula

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Posted 26 January 2018 - 05:46 PM

There are tuned edges into the 12's, so that is not entirely true, however one would guess that the new ST edge will be immediately brought to a tuner to see what they could do. i would imagine a 12.7-12.5 out of a tuned ST would be possible in the right tuners hands. 



#3 OFFLINE   onyxbfly

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 09:02 AM

Even though the X3 is in a similar weight class.  I really don't find them comparable to the edge in terms of size. I think more of an accurate comparison would be an X5 or X6.


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#4 OFFLINE   akirby

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Posted 27 January 2018 - 09:11 AM

Even though the X3 is in a similar weight class.  I really don't find them comparable to the edge in terms of size. I think more of an accurate comparison would be an X5 or X6.


I don’t understand why people continue to do that. They always compare smaller competitors whether it’s a price comparison or performance. You really need to compare the same size vehicles.
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#5 OFFLINE   MaX83_ZA

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 10:40 AM

Couple of things to note with regards to BMW:

- The ZF 8 speed in the beemer is very good and comes with Launch Control - this is porbably one of the biggest reasons why the BMW is so much faster 0-100

- BMW Power - BMW caught a trick from VW when quoting Hp numbers and the B58 platform is very underrated. Some believe the quoted numbers are wHp and not just Hp (have a read here: https://www.bimmerbo...ed-dyno-figures )

 

Holding thumbs that Ford ups their game with the ST. Would be great if the new Edge could keep up with a Bimmer



#6 OFFLINE   Fastfwd75

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 11:21 AM

MKX 2016 2.7T already has that 335 and 380 engine but only on octane 93 and 6 speed transmission. It is probably heavyer than the Edge. It was meant to compete with the Lexus RX but also the BMW X5 when you look at the size; the X3 is much smaller closer to an escape or MKC. The X5 with the base 3.0 turbo engine is also much heavyer than the MKX so imagine vs the Edge.

 

 

That being said I think all BMWs require octane 93 so they are always at peak numbers. The MKX only requires 87 but published numbers have an * that specify octane 93.

 

The numbers we see for BMW don't line up with the hp/tq numbers we see for american cars. They have to be under reporting them for some reason.

 

Will the Edge 2.7 ST be faster than the X3? I don't know. If it is that is just crazy because the Edge is so much bigger even if weights are similar. Pretty sure MPG will be much worse on the Edge vs the BMW but for how much those cars cost gas price is not that much of a concern.



#7 OFFLINE   Bamm1

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 11:23 AM

There are tuned edges into the 12's, so that is not entirely true, however one would guess that the new ST edge will be immediately brought to a tuner to see what they could do. i would imagine a 12.7-12.5 out of a tuned ST would be possible in the right tuners hands. 

Are there "official" time slips showing an Edge Sport in the 12's with just a tune?  All the time slips I have seen to date don't beat the X3 M40i.

 

 

I don’t understand why people continue to do that. They always compare smaller competitors whether it’s a price comparison or performance. You really need to compare the same size vehicles.

 

The 2018 X3 is 186″ L x 75″ W x 66″ H and weighs ~4300 lbs.

The 2018* Edge is 188″ L x 76″ W x 69″ H and weighs ~4400 lbs.

 

I wouldn't say the Edge is substantially bigger than the X3.  But I get your point.  I was not expecting the Edge ST to match the lighter and more powerful X3.  My speculation game was more along the lines of how close do we think it can get...........

 

* I am assuming the 2019 will not change

 

Couple of things to note with regards to BMW:

- The ZF 8 speed in the beemer is very good and comes with Launch Control - this is porbably one of the biggest reasons why the BMW is so much faster 0-100

- BMW Power - BMW caught a trick from VW when quoting Hp numbers and the B58 platform is very underrated. Some believe the quoted numbers are wHp and not just Hp (have a read here: https://www.bimmerbo...ed-dyno-figures )

 

Holding thumbs that Ford ups their game with the ST. Would be great if the new Edge could keep up with a Bimmer

 

 As far as launch control goes several of the car testing websites/magazines have found that just brake torqueing the ZF 8A equipped BMW's produces similar times (sometimes better)  to those produced using launch control.

 

Otherwise I agree on all your points.

 

I am "hoping" Ford did some "bench marking" when it built its own 8-speed and the ZF was on that comparison list.  

 

I am also well aware of BMW's power rating shenanigans.  The 3820 lb. 340i xDrive 8A with "320 hp" runs the 1/4 in 12.7 @ 109 mph.  :huh:



#8 OFFLINE   Bamm1

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 11:35 AM

MKX 2016 2.7T already has that 335 and 380 engine but only on octane 93 and 6 speed transmission. It is probably heavyer than the Edge. It was meant to compete with the Lexus RX but also the BMW X5 when you look at the size; the X3 is much smaller closer to an escape or MKC. The X5 with the base 3.0 turbo engine is also much heavyer than the MKX so imagine vs the Edge.

 

 

That being said I think all BMWs require octane 93 so they are always at peak numbers. The MKX only requires 87 but published numbers have an * that specify octane 93.

 

The numbers we see for BMW don't line up with the hp/tq numbers we see for american cars. They have to be under reporting them for some reason.

 

Will the Edge 2.7 ST be faster than the X3? I don't know. If it is that is just crazy because the Edge is so much bigger even if weights are similar. Pretty sure MPG will be much worse on the Edge vs the BMW but for how much those cars cost gas price is not that much of a concern.

 

The Edge numbers reported above were produced using 91 Octane.  So even then, likely not the full 315/350.

 

The MKX is ~220 lbs. heavier than the Edge Sport.  The only performance numbers I could find were generated using 87 Octane.  So again, not the full 335/380.  But here they are for reference:

 

0-60: 6.0

0-100: 15.4

1/4 Mile: 14.5 @ 97 mph

 

The 5000 lbs. X5 35i xDrive produces similar numbers to the MKX. (0-60: 5.8, 0-100: 15.7 and 1/4 mile 14.5 @ 96 mph).



#9 OFFLINE   akirby

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 01:40 PM

It wasn’t just your comparison - reviewers and magazines do it all the time and have for years. They would compare a Lincoln MKZ with a BMW 3 series because they’re the same price. Which is silly. Compare the same size and type of vehicles and note the relative price or performance differences.
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#10 OFFLINE   Old Ray

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 04:16 PM

Full disclosure: I have a 2016 Edge Sport and I love it, big improvement over the Ti (?) I had. (Gutless pig)

 

Sorry, but I must be getting old (oh, right I am) I just don’t get the point of all this. Many nice features and extras that the majority of drivers will seldom, if ever use.  It sounds a lot like my nuclear button is bigger than yours! I understand having  more power, better handling, etc but how critical is this in the big picture and more importantly in the consumers buying decision? Most BMW owners buy them for the snob appeal, I doubt that they will shop for a Edge ST no matter how comparable.   I also doubt that a potential Edge ST purchaser would seriously consider a X3.

 

Second disclosure: If I can swing the money I will be purchasing a ST, the item that closed the deal: Fog Lights (go figure). :)


Edited by Old Ray, 29 January 2018 - 04:17 PM.

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#11 OFFLINE   akirby

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 04:32 PM

Full disclosure: I have a 2016 Edge Sport and I love it, big improvement over the Ti (?) I had. (Gutless pig)

 

Sorry, but I must be getting old (oh, right I am) I just don’t get the point of all this. Many nice features and extras that the majority of drivers will seldom, if ever use.  It sounds a lot like my nuclear button is bigger than yours! I understand having  more power, better handling, etc but how critical is this in the big picture and more importantly in the consumers buying decision? Most BMW owners buy them for the snob appeal, I doubt that they will shop for a Edge ST no matter how comparable.   I also doubt that a potential Edge ST purchaser would seriously consider a X3.

 

Second disclosure: If I can swing the money I will be purchasing a ST, the item that closed the deal: Fog Lights (go figure). :)

 

There are enough people out there that want the goodies even if they don't fully use them and more importantly, they're willing to pay a premium to get them.  In the end, it's all about being able to charge more and make more profit.


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#12 OFFLINE   Mikula

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 06:46 PM

Are there "official" time slips showing an Edge Sport in the 12's with just a tune?  All the time slips I have seen to date don't beat the X3 M40i.

 

 

Yes. Several. There are members here part of a Ford Edge facebook group of some kind that post videos and slips.  I'd give you a link, but I don't have a facebook.



#13 OFFLINE   Bamm1

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 10:24 AM

 

Yes. Several. There are members here part of a Ford Edge facebook group of some kind that post videos and slips.  I'd give you a link, but I don't have a facebook.

Interesting.  Do you happen to have any additional information?  Which tune?  Do you know elapsed times and trap speeds?



#14 OFFLINE   MaX83_ZA

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 12:32 PM

Interesting.  Do you happen to have any additional information?  Which tune?  Do you know elapsed times and trap speeds?

 

http://www.fordedgef...t-thread/page-1

 

Honestly, dont think a stage 1 Sport has much of a chance against a stock M40i... worse even if the M40i installs JB4



#15 OFFLINE   Bamm1

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 02:57 PM

 

http://www.fordedgef...t-thread/page-1

 

Honestly, dont think a stage 1 Sport has much of a chance against a stock M40i... worse even if the M40i installs JB4

 

So it looks like getting into 12's required some pretty extensive modifications (motor mount, lowering springs, upgraded intercooler, etc.) plus an e30 tune. I was mistakenly under the impression it was just a Stage 1 93 Octane flash tune with no other modifications. 

 

So it doesn't really translate to the improvements Ford will be adding with the ST trim.  Looks like there are some wheel hop issues. Maybe with the ST alterations to the suspension, etc. that could be reduced or eliminated.

 

Again, not looking to beat the M40i or the GLC43.  Maybe the SQ5 would have been a better performance benchmark (again, I understand it is smaller).  But the weight is very close (4429 lbs.) and though its power ratings (354/369) are an almost exact match for the M40i, it is a good bit slower.  I would think matching performance numbers from the ST are much more in the realm of possibilities.

 

2018 SQ5

  • 0-60: 5.1
  • 0-100: 13.0
  • 1/4 mile: 13.7 @ 102 mph

The ST would need half second improvements to 60 and through the 1/4 mile (vs. the Sport) to match the SQ5.  It would also need a little less than a 2 second improvement to 100 (maybe less doable).  The 19 horsepower deficit (likely more as Audi also tends to under rate their hp #s as well) will likely not allow a trap speed match, but it could break into triple digits.  Coincidentally, these numbers would also match the ~300 lbs. lighter Ford Fusion Sport. 

 

I think I am banking on the transmission alone for some not insubstantial performance improvements.  When Chevy moved from the Aisin Warner F8F35 8-speed to the GM/Ford 9T50E 9-speed on the 2017 Chevy Malibu  (with no other changes) it saw a 0.5 sec. faster 0-60 to time and a 0.4 sec / 3.4 mph improvement in ¼ mile mile.  I can only hope for similar gains in moving from the current 6A to the new 8A (with the power bump only helping the cause).


Edited by Bamm1, 30 January 2018 - 03:08 PM.


#16 OFFLINE   Mikula

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 06:33 PM

 

So it looks like getting into 12's required some pretty extensive modifications (motor mount, lowering springs, upgraded intercooler, etc.) plus an e30 tune. I was mistakenly under the impression it was just a Stage 1 93 Octane flash tune with no other modifications. 

 

My understanding was that the 1st Edge into the 12's was on a 100 octane tune from unleashed with lowering springs. 

 

The IC, aftermarket wheels, and motor mount were added later and he got deeper into the 12's.

 

I could be wrong here. can't seem to find the damn thread for the proof. But no, it wasn't just a flashed tune alone. 


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#17 OFFLINE   Bamm1

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 11:22 AM

 

My understanding was that the 1st Edge into the 12's was on a 100 octane tune from unleashed with lowering springs. 

 

The IC, aftermarket wheels, and motor mount were added later and he got deeper into the 12's.

 

I could be wrong here. can't seem to find the damn thread for the proof. But no, it wasn't just a flashed tune alone. 

 

I have searched the forum. It looks like with a 93 Octane tune alone we are seeing mid 13's (or slightly below).  I see the LMS just released a new version of their tune. On their youtube page it says customers are reporting being in the 12's.  But no timeslips, etc. there either.



#18 OFFLINE   Mikula

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 06:48 PM

 

I have searched the forum. It looks like with a 93 Octane tune alone we are seeing mid 13's (or slightly below).  I see the LMS just released a new version of their tune. On their youtube page it says customers are reporting being in the 12's.  But no timeslips, etc. there either.

 

I heard the same thing from LMS and I'm still waiting for a time slip. my 2 best slips on 93 are 13.39 @ 101 and last weekend managed a 13.28 @ 102

 

Both were while running the 93 octane V2 tune. My runs with the V3 tune were much worse so i don't know how LMS can make those claims.

 

I also haven't been able to make a 100 octane run yet. fuel shack was closed, maybe too early in the season for them to have fuel at a test n tune? I would assume I can get into 13.1X territory with the 100 tune and the right DA


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#19 OFFLINE   WWWPerfA_ZN0W

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 02:11 AM

If this helps any

http://www.dragtimes...rag-Racing.html


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#20 OFFLINE   Bamm1

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 10:56 AM

 

I heard the same thing from LMS and I'm still waiting for a time slip. my 2 best slips on 93 are 13.39 @ 101 and last weekend managed a 13.28 @ 102

 

Both were while running the 93 octane V2 tune. My runs with the V3 tune were much worse so i don't know how LMS can make those claims.

 

I also haven't been able to make a 100 octane run yet. fuel shack was closed, maybe too early in the season for them to have fuel at a test n tune? I would assume I can get into 13.1X territory with the 100 tune and the right DA

 

With a tune alone that is a pretty big reduction over stock.  It seems possible that LMS could make some tweaks to knock off a few more tenths and get into the 12's.

 

So the V3 tune, which is showing much better dyno numbers under the curve, actually slowed you down?!?  Wow.  Did you reach out to LMS to help troubleshoot? 






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