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Ralph31

Water Pump replacement; engine tear down?

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I was reading about this class action lawsuit. Link below. Sorry if this topic has been raised I looked and didn't find it. 

Many of the Ford V6 engines (my 2016 Edge) have these internal water pumps that when they fail take the engine with them! 

Set aside this is a poor design; take something easy to replace and make it a dealer service item and hide the failure symptoms until it is too late.

Ford is recommending coolant changes every 30K miles. What a band-aide solution! 

 

https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2018/ford-water-pump-class-action-lawsuit.shtml

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Personally I wouldn't call a coolant drain & fill a "band-aid solution", it's just regular maintenance. Yes it's a poor design & location for the water pump, but a coolant change should still regularly be done on any car (along with other fluids).

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I keep hoping this subject has run its course and then....whammo, another post (this one citing information posted October 2018). 

 

Those articles and TV consumer news pieces routinely fail to mention upgrades to the engine, particularly the dual sealing of the water pump from 2011 on) and change in coolant recommendations (gold is out, orange is in) and other mods designed to increase engine life and, thanks to a tiny weep hole, give owners warning if there 'is' a seal breach.  The newsies also neglect to mention the maintenance done on a failed engine and often don't even note the year.  Remember this same basic engine that's in our Edge is a fire breathing 385hp twin turbo monster in the Flex (and possibly F150).  Wouldn't it be fun to transplant one of those into the Edge? 🚀

 

Bottom line, just keep your Edge (or F150 or Flex or Taurus or Fusion or Explorer or Lincoln MKZ and Sable or Mazda CX9 all of which use the 3.5L engine) properly maintained, take the extra step of changing coolant every 30k miles if you want and enjoy the car!

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On 9/4/2019 at 8:23 PM, DaMiFo said:

Personally I wouldn't call a coolant drain & fill a "band-aid solution", it's just regular maintenance. Yes it's a poor design & location for the water pump, but a coolant change should still regularly be done on any car (along with other fluids).

Thank you for the response. I understand and 100% agree regular maintenance is required on all vehicles. If you perform all the  regular maintenance (as many have) and your engine is lost because of a faulty seal and the best they can come up with change your fluids regularly.... Perhaps you don't understand what I meant by a "band-aide solution". If the problem that occurs (lost engine) from a poor design and location is not completely resolved, that to me that is the definition of a band aide.

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34 minutes ago, Ralph31 said:

Thank you for the response. I understand and 100% agree regular maintenance is required on all vehicles. If you perform all the  regular maintenance (as many have) and your engine is lost because of a faulty seal and the best they can come up with change your fluids regularly.... Perhaps you don't understand what I meant by a "band-aide solution". If the problem that occurs (lost engine) from a poor design and location is not completely resolved, that to me that is the definition of a band aide.

 

If it prevents the problem for 250K miles then it's far more than a band aid solution by any definition.

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6 hours ago, akirby said:

 

If it prevents the problem for 250K miles then it's far more than a band aid solution by any definition.

That's one big false "IF" and has not been the case. Failures at 65K and 95K miles are what customers are complaining about. Ford is not saying if you change the fluid every 30K miles and the engine blows due to a water pump going bad, prior to 250K miles they will replace your engine free of charge. They are stating the best way to avoid the failure of a water pump is to change the fluid every 30K miles. That helps prevent the failure, it SOLVES nothing, regardless of what you want to call it.

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20 hours ago, Ralph31 said:

That's one big false "IF" and has not been the case. Failures at 65K and 95K miles are what customers are complaining about. Ford is not saying if you change the fluid every 30K miles and the engine blows due to a water pump going bad, prior to 250K miles they will replace your engine free of charge. They are stating the best way to avoid the failure of a water pump is to change the fluid every 30K miles. That helps prevent the failure, it SOLVES nothing, regardless of what you want to call it.

 

There are many owners who have over 250k miles on the original water pump, so it is possible.

 

They’re not going to redesign and replace your engine so if changing the coolant every 30k miles prevents the problem then I don’t see the big issue.  Is it a slight inconvenience - yes.  It SOLVES the problem, it just doesn’t do it the way you want.

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I understand the problem now. You don't understand the difference between a solution and a preventive measure.

 

For those who do, change your fluid every 30K miles and pray you're one of the lucky ones to get +100K miles from your water pump

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I understand a lot about troubleshooting, problem resolution and root cause analysis thanks to 33 years in IT.  I’ve solved many software and hardware problems.  If following the severe service maintenance schedule prevents the problem from occurring then that is a solution even if you don’t like it.

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I wouldn't call it a "solution" either.  It's merely a reduction in risk.  I'm sure it's not a 100% reduction in risk, therefore it's not a "solution".  Without data, we really don't know if that means it goes from a 95% chance of failure to 5%, 95% to 85% or a 5% chance to 4%.

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5 hours ago, Waldo said:

I wouldn't call it a "solution" either.  It's merely a reduction in risk.  I'm sure it's not a 100% reduction in risk, therefore it's not a "solution".  Without data, we really don't know if that means it goes from a 95% chance of failure to 5%, 95% to 85% or a 5% chance to 4%.

 

Fair enough, but the type of failure is linked to internal gaskets/seals (as opposed to metal fatigue) and that is directly affected by the coolant.   I know at least 2 200K+ mileage Edges on the original water pump that received regular coolant replacements.

 

Given all that anecdotal evidence I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that 30K mile coolant changes will prevent this from happening at least 95% of the time.

 

To me, it's a solution but if you want to call it something else then be my guest.

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On 9/13/2019 at 5:58 AM, Waldo said:

I wouldn't call it a "solution" either.  It's merely a reduction in risk.  I'm sure it's not a 100% reduction in risk, therefore it's not a "solution".  Without data, we really don't know if that means it goes from a 95% chance of failure to 5%, 95% to 85% or a 5% chance to 4%.

Thank you very much! You get it. It would be like if Ford sold LED light bulbs and when they failed it took out every appliance in the house! Ford would then say, just replace the bulb every year to avoid the issue because MOST of the time they fail within the first year. 

This, as you, and most people understand is NOT a solution, it is, as you say a risk reduction. 

If Ford were willing to stand behind this risk reduction and state if the water pump fails after following their recommended maintenance prior to 150K miles they will cover ALL costs related to the failure. It is because they know it SOLVES nothing. It lowers the risk, nothing more.

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Just had my 2018 3.5L in for a tire rotation. It has 33k miles on it and while I was waiting asked the service manager if they recommend the  coolant change considering it has an internal water pump. He said no you're good till 100k miles.   Same guy who said no to needing the PTU fluid changed. :)

 

 

 

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40 minutes ago, flymore said:

Just had my 2018 3.5L in for a tire rotation. It has 33k miles on it and while I was waiting asked the service manager if they recommend the  coolant change considering it has an internal water pump. He said no you're good till 100k miles.   Same guy who said no to needing the PTU fluid changed. :)

I trust that you no longer seek advice from him.

 

I recall that there was improvements made on the later models, where the pump leak path is outside the engine - maybe others more familiar with this model can confirm.

Edited by 1004ron

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30 minutes ago, 1004ron said:

I trust that you no longer seek advice from him.

 

I recall that there was improvements made on the later models, where the pump leak path is outside the engine - maybe others more familiar with this model can confirm.

 

Nope, not seeking advice from this dealer.

Why not just take the money and do the job?  :)

For the hope it'll fail and get a bigger pay day later?

 

Quick tire rotation, I'll be back for that.  :)

 

 

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On 9/9/2019 at 5:41 PM, Ralph31 said:

That's one big false "IF" and has not been the case. Failures at 65K and 95K miles are what customers are complaining about. Ford is not saying if you change the fluid every 30K miles and the engine blows due to a water pump going bad, prior to 250K miles they will replace your engine free of charge. They are stating the best way to avoid the failure of a water pump is to change the fluid every 30K miles. That helps prevent the failure, it SOLVES nothing, regardless of what you want to call it.

So if you don’t believe this will help you’re going to leave your coolant in way to long ?  Atleast changing it makes me feel better weather it works or not. I’m not sure it will help either but why take the chance. 

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On 9/12/2019 at 6:27 PM, Ralph31 said:

I understand the problem now. You don't understand the difference between a solution and a preventive measure.

 

For those who do, change your fluid every 30K miles and pray you're one of the lucky ones to get +100K miles from your water pump

 

I've researched this problem quite a bit, and based on that research plus the scads of vehicles using this engine/water pump configuration with way past 100k I see regularly for sale with no mention of wp or engine replacement, I've concluded that it is a very small % that have failed. The problem is that when it does fail it's either a very expensive new water pump replacement (relatively speaking) or a catostrophic engine failure - so it's a huge deal if it happens. 

My conclusion is the same for ptu failures - they are rare but if they happen it's a big deal and this is why it gets so much attention. So I disagree calling those with failed pumps regardless of miles "lucky", they are in fact the vast majority of owners of these engines. It's those with pumps (and ptus) that fail that are in fact unlucky.

Edited by erikrichard

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Hard to draw a conclusion based strictly on the absence of data, BUT from Ford's point of view, there IS no problem since not a peep about it all these years.  Of course we see stretched timing chains on vehicles that supposedly do not have that particular issue, so who's to say what hand YOU are going to be dealt.

 

Tho I would tend to agree that in the aggregate it is not a major issue, but to the individual owner, it can be quite a shock.

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When in for a quick tire rotation on my new to me 2018 AWD 3.5L with 33000 miles on it.

While waiting asked the service manager if I should get the antifreeze changed.

 

Nope, you're good till 100k miles.

I said it has the internal water pump.

He said, yea it's ok till 100k miles.

 

 

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That's the company line.  The thing is people would be posting all sorts of complaints about rampant up selling if shops were recommending a coolant change every 30k miles. 

You can either insist on a change or just do it yourself if you're so inclined.
BTW, the class action suit against Ford mentioned in the OP was dismissed a couple of months ago.  In essence the judge said there's no problem with the pump, plaintiffs failed to prove their case.  Here's a link to the decision: https://www.docketbird.com/court-documents/Roe-et-al-v-Ford-Motor-Company/OPINION-and-ORDER-Granting-in-Part-20-MOTION-to-Dismiss-Plaintiffs-039-Amended-Class-Action-Complaint-Signed-by-District-Judge-Laurie-J-Michelson-WBar/mied-2:2018-cv-12528-00031

 

 

Edited by Gadgetjq
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I had the "UNLUCKY" pleasure of needing a water pump at 90,000 miles.  Luckily  I noticed my leaky pump before it got into the engine.  My 2007 still had the original gold colored coolant in it.  Nobody ever told me to change it to the special Green Ford recommended stuff. 

Regular maintenance and just fixing stuff that breaks is how to be happy with your car.  I just spent $750 to put new front tires on my car along with an oil change, coolant flush, and change the oil pressure sending switch.  (the switch was giving me occasional warnings without reason)  I could think of better things to do with the money but I intend to keep this vehicle until the end of it's useful life.   It has 148,000 miles on it and now that this work is done I like it again.

I do worry about the water pump but I have the coolant changed every 30,000 miles. I consider it part of the cost of ownership.   

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