Edge turns over several times, doesn’t start,,,

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

Extremely rare IME for the cam sensors to fail, but have seen it happen ONCE.  There is a TSB on the phasers for early gen 1 vehicles, but not for 2010.  You should have the later P/N phasers in there already.

 

Not on the Edge, but if the battery was leaking acid at any point, it is a reasonable thing to inspect the wiring around/below the battery tray.  Oddball things can pop codes.

[kapk22]

On 7/17/2021 at 4:31 PM, WWWPerfA_ZN0W said:

Extremely rare IME for the cam sensors to fail, but have seen it happen ONCE.  There is a TSB on the phasers for early gen 1 vehicles, but not for 2010.  You should have the later P/N phasers in there already.

 

Not on the Edge, but if the battery was leaking acid at any point, it is a reasonable thing to inspect the wiring around/below the battery tray.  Oddball things can pop codes.

we took the car in to the “mechanic” last week and they were able to replicate the issue. They told us they were confident it was spark plug related, after the mechanic found one of them with a gap of 100. They said the standard gap for the plugs is 60 and believed the “spark was bouncing around, causing the computer to be confused”. 
 

while doing their “diagnostics” the mechanic cleaned the throttle body and the initial charge for diagnostics/trouble shooting was $120. They told me replacement plugs cost $18.99. I asked what the total cost would be for them to swap the new plugs and they said $500 and some change. This included the initial $120. 
 

i got off the phone and called a local parts store who had the recommended iridium plugs for $8.99 each. After watching several videos and approximately four hours, I completed the mission last night. The existing plugs appeared to be the ones that came from the factory 120k miles ago. They were a bi!$h to get out and two were actually cracked. 
 

When I started the car for the first time, I noticed it turned over a bit long. The crank was not as long as it had been previously, however, it was not normal (still). Angela drive the car today and said it did not do the long crank thing at all. She also said it seemed to be running noticeably “smoother” than before.  I cannot say it ever really ran rough, or with any kind of noticeable miss before. 
 

I initially found it hard to believe spark plugs could be causing the long crank issue. However, I am also not a mechanic, and I really don’t have much knowledge when it comes to the computers in the newer vehicles. 
 

we plan on giving it a week to see if it goes back to the long cranking. As I mentioned before, the car did not have the issue for almost a week after I replaced the battery. If it goes past a full week, it’s possible that they were right about the plugs. I am a little confused about the way it started the first turn though. 
 

as always, any thoughts/ideas, suggestions are appreciated.  
 

thanks everyone 

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

have not seen a no start condition due to plugs, but let's wait and see if the problem is indeed resolved. usually misfires will show up before then. i did not have misfires on my 2007, but the plugs were around 0.087 at the time.  gen 1.5 seems to eat plugs slower than gen 1's lol, but i see misfires even on those engines.

 

do you have pics of the old plugs for reference? wanted to see if the coating on them was normal, or indicated oil/fuel issues. it should be  all or nothing IMHO with these engines. if it IS a spark problem, then maybe we should check the strength of that spark also, set a baseline for the new plugs.

 

 

Edited August 3, 2021 by WWWPerfA_ZN0W

[kapk22]

I did not take a picture of them. They were definitely gapped substantially more than the new iridium NGKs. The side/ground electrode on all of them were noticeably bent upward and a couple had cracks around the base area, near the threads. They also appeared charred, kind of a whitish gray, leading me to believe the engine was running lean. This makes sense, as one of the initial codes months back indicated so. The bottom portion, or “center electrode” also appeared to be somewhat disintegrated on them, if that makes sense.    
 

she drove the car today and it did not have a long crank any of the times she started it. I asked her to describe the difference between how the car started before and after the new plugs.  She said, “there’s no hesitation, it’s like a 19-20 year old getting up off the couch vs a 60-70 year old”. ?

 

I asked her if there was any change in the way it drove, specifically how it idled or accelerated and she said no.  
 

I am thinking, we will wait a week or week and a half to see if the long crank comes back.  If it doesn’t, great. If it does, then we are on to the last two or three possibilities. Camshaft position sensors, fuel pump/fuel filter. 

 

Thank you again for taking the time to respond/help. 

Edited August 4, 2021 by 1004ron

[kapk22]

On 7/16/2021 at 5:15 AM, akirby said:

FWIW I remember a similar issue on first Gen Fusions that had to do with the engine not stopping in the correct position which caused it to not restart intermittently.  I think it was maybe the crankshaft or camshaft position sensor but I really don’t remember.

The car did the long crank three times yesterday. I’m getting sick of this thing. 

[Perblue]

I don't  know if this applies to the edge fuel pump or not but chevys were infamous for it, someone can maybe chime in on this. There is an anti drain back valve in the fuel pump to keep fuel in the fuel rail when the car sits. The valve would go bad and allow the fuel to drain back over time, sometimes a few hours, sometimes over night. You would have to turn the key back and forth several times, just the first click don't actually try and start it until you've done it a few times, to repressurize the fuel rail and then it would start.

[kapk22]

1 hour ago, Perblue said:

I don't  know if this applies to the edge fuel pump or not but chevys were infamous for it, someone can maybe chime in on this. There is an anti drain back valve in the fuel pump to keep fuel in the fuel rail when the car sits. The valve would go bad and allow the fuel to drain back over time, sometimes a few hours, sometimes over night. You would have to turn the key back and forth several times, just the first click don't actually try and start it until you've done it a few times, to repressurize the fuel rail and then it would start.

Yeah, someone mentioned this. I don’t know how to get to it. Unless it’s inside the tank, with the pump. 

[kapk22]

Shop is going to look at it next Monday, no additional diagnostics fee. They waited $260 to replace the crankshaft position sensor. But they said it’s uncommon for them to go out.  
 

I’m totally confused as to where the crankshaft position sensor is. 

[Perblue]

6 minutes ago, kapk22 said:

Yeah, someone mentioned this. I don’t know how to get to it. Unless it’s inside the tank, with the pump. 

 

That it is unfortunately and is part of the pump so you just replace the pump.

[kapk22]

1 hour ago, Perblue said:

 

That it is unfortunately and is part of the pump so you just replace the pump.

they quoted $700+ to replace the pump. 

[1004ron]

I'm not too familiar with this model, and not sure where the check valve is located.

 

A pressure gauge on the fuel rail would confirm the theory that its the check valve.

 

RockAuto prices aren't too bad.

 

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/ford,2010,edge,3.5l+v6,1444714,fuel+&+air,fuel+pump+&+housing+assembly,10147

 

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/ford,2010,edge,3.5l+v6,1444714,fuel+&+air,fuel+pump,6256

Edited August 4, 2021 by 1004ron

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

5 hours ago, kapk22 said:

Shop is going to look at it next Monday, no additional diagnostics fee. They waited $260 to replace the crankshaft position sensor. But they said it’s uncommon for them to go out.  
 

I’m totally confused as to where the crankshaft position sensor is. 

Left and Right are references to a longtiudinal engine as viewed from the driver seat.  so bank 2 would be left, bank 1 would be right hand.

Crankshaft Position (CKP) Sensor

Item	Part Number	Description
1	W701542	Heat shield nut
2	W701669	Heat shield bolt
3	6K342	Heat shield
4	6C070	Rubber grommet cover
5	14A464	Crankshaft Position (CKP) sensor electrical connector
6	6D327	CKP sensor bolt
7	6C315	CKP sensor

Removal and Installation

1. With the vehicle in NEUTRAL, position it on a hoist. For additional information, refer to Section 100-02 .

2. Remove the LH catalytic converter. For additional information, refer to Section 309-00 .

3. Remove the bolt, nut and the heat shield.
   • To install, tighten to 10 Nm (89 lb-in).

4. Remove the rubber grommet cover.

5. Disconnect the Crankshaft Position (CKP) sensor electrical connector.

6. Remove the bolt and the CKP sensor.
   • To install, tighten to 10 Nm (89 lb-in).

7. To install, reverse the removal procedure.

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

2010 Ford Edge Fuel System Pressure Test.pdf

[Perblue]

1 hour ago, WWWPerfA_ZN0W said:

2010 Ford Edge Fuel System Pressure Test.pdf

 

A bad check valve doesn't really show up with a fuel pressure test. You can have good pressure with a bad valve and since you have to prime it a couple times to pressure up the tester. Basically if you have to prime/turn the key back and forth a couple times for it to start it's likely a bad check valve.

 

I don't doubt it costs 700 to change the fuel pump.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Perblue

[1004ron]

I would think with a good check valve the rail pressure would take longer to decay.

 

 

[Perblue]

53 minutes ago, 1004ron said:

I would think with a good check valve the rail pressure would take longer to decay.

 

 

That is an extreme case of a failed valve, the one on my Camaro didn't show any loss over half an hour, yet in the morning it had to be primed. If you were able to leave it on for an extended period of time it would have likely showed. I was chasing a worse problem at the time though. When I finally did the pump the starting issue went away.

[kapk22]

18 hours ago, WWWPerfA_ZN0W said:

Left and Right are references to a longtiudinal engine as viewed from the driver seat.  so bank 2 would be left, bank 1 would be right hand.

Crankshaft Position (CKP) Sensor

 

This is very helpful. Thank you.  Looks like there’s just the one to replace. I am thinking I may be able to swap that out, since I was able to get those plugs done. Lot different than my old in-line six on the 1990 Jeep Wrangler 

Edited August 5, 2021 by 1004ron

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

too bad the gen 1's don't have an FP  PID like the 2011+ do. would make checking fuel pressure SO easy.  but i would definitely advocated doing this check before going to the heartache of replacing the CKP sensor.

[kapk22]

31 minutes ago, WWWPerfA_ZN0W said:

too bad the gen 1's don't have an FP  PID like the 2011+ do. would make checking fuel pressure SO easy.  but i would definitely advocated doing this check before going to the heartache of replacing the CKP sensor.

Okay ,  then I will have them check the fuel pressure Monday. And hold off on the sensor. 

[Ben S]

Was there a final resolution on this issue because I'm experiencing the same problem and the first shop that looked at it with the diagnostic tool could not determine the root cause? Thanks