Rockfish

The window sticker shows gas miles at 21/31 per gallon which is much better than 16/24 I see on Edmunds. What makes the difference? Drivers, Equipment, different test standards?

cmarcus1979, I can't answer your question either since I haven't decided on which new vehicle I want yet but don't get discouraged with this forum. There are many good posters here and there are a very small number that are "hilarious" especially if you want to discuss brakes.

You may want to ask your question in the tech forum.

Just received the Car and Driver for October 2007 and in the back are some questions and answers. I found one that is relevant to the brake discussion.

Car and Driver October 2007

Question

What’s with all the bragging about bigger brake discs, multipot calipers, carbon discs and pads, and so on? I mean, we all know that every car on the road today, even humble econoboxes, can lock their brakes or activate ABS with no problem. So it seems logical that, given the same surface, stopping distances are only a function of the tire package. What, then, is the performance advantage for stopping distances of bigger or better brake components?

Guillermo Pinto

Santiago, Chile

Answer

Your point is annoyingly valid. As with acceleration and cornering, a car can only brake as much as the grip of the tires will allow. The main advantages of better brake components, then, are to resist fade and improve braking feel. Larger discs have more mass to absorb the heat that’s generated from the friction between the disc and pad. This prevents— or at least delays—the brakes from overheating, so they can perform repeated stops before reaching the stage when they can no longer lock the tires.

According to Franz Kafka's Garage, his conclusion is not to upgrade the brakes for everyday driving but spend the money on the best traction tires available.

This view on braking does help me feel more comfortable on the Ford Edge.

What does BAMR stand for. I keep seeing that mentioned but have not figured it out yet.

It is a technical term. I had to ask also.

Big A$$ Moon Roof

Some of us are tired of people making a mountain out of a molehill, that's all. Yes, the brakes could be better but they're hardly unsafe despite what sranger and others believe. There are other vehicles that take longer to stop but they don't get the same scrutiny. Same with the weight - reviewers and posters chastise the Edge for being heavy while ignoring other similar vehicles that weigh much more (Touraeg and X5 e.g.). It's such a double standard.

 

As for upgrading rotors for better stopping - don't bother unless you're making them bigger with new calipers. Just do the pads and stainless steel brake lines and possibly new tires depending on what the 08s come with. It's not rocket science.

 

If 10 feet is so damned important, why not spend the extra money for an X5. It stops in 125 feet. If 135 is so much safer than 146 then 125 should be twice as safe.

 

Sorry, but we've been over this 27 times and the answer is the same.

If you are tired of the Edge brake issues then ignore posts on the topic. If you think a "troll" is in the forum then "don't feed the troll". You will not be fired for skipping a thread on brakes. You may have been over it 27 times but this is my first time discussing it since I have started a vehicle search to replace my 99 Dodge minivan with 155,000 + miles. I signed up in this forum to determine if the brake "problem" will be addressed by Ford in 08 or will I have to live with it or upgrade. Since I prefer not to live with it I have been looking for upgrade options which have been discussed here and I appreciate it.

I am still pursuing information on how much the upgrades will improve braking to know where I will get the best bang for my buck. To me the brake upgrade discussion with the constructive comments have made an excellent thread that the others with concerns about the Edge brakes should find helpful.

There's a big difference between saying "I'd like to upgrade the brakes" versus "the brakes are horrible and they're not safe".

Who was saying "the brakes are horrible and they're not safe"?

I have read comments about the Edge brakes not being up to par on other forums and within almost every car review on the Edge. I have been looking for suggestions on upgrades. I received several constructive comments regarding brakes (Porterfield R-4S), rotors (J-Hook, Slotted or Cross-Drilled Rotors) and tires on this forum.

Guess what, a number of other people think the Edge has a lot going for it but have questions about the brakes. It apparently has been discussed for a long time by a lot of people possibly making some more sensitive to the "brake" question then others and are quick to think any one that brings up the subject is "Ford Bashing". I for one am please with some on this forum responded with enough solutions to my questions about the brakes on the Edge that I have scratch the problem off my problem list and feel comfortable that around $1500 will provide the braking power I expect.

Let's continue to be constructive with responses to the brake question so potential Edge buyers will understand options available.

Then make sure you don't tailgate or follow too close.....that is a big factor in accidents...people who follow too close, and then can't stop in time....all the premium brake pads and ultra performing ABS systems in the world won't help if you are too close....the laws of physics prevail......

If you have been driving close to 30,000 miles per year for 37 years and have been successful with contending with idiots like aggressive, drunk etc types of drivers by just not following too closely you have been blessed. I prefer to have the best defensive driving tools available to me in my new car. This includes a clear mind, good sense to not be an idiot by following too close and having the "Edge" in stopping and maneuvering ability. If that means I upgrade my suspension, tires and brakes that is what I will do. I want all the advantages on my side.

No, but I am hoping that all the kinks, if any will be worked out in the newer model.

And I am a bit concerned about the brake issue that I have read about.

A

Rather or not Ford acknwledges and corrects the problem, look at some of the suggestions on tires, pads and rotors by other members on the forum to improve braking to match the competition. If you like the Edge then buy it and upgrade tires and brakes.

This is just a case of being overloaded with information. The brakes work. The car stops. If you go around having panic stops, then you need to go to driver's ed., or take a defensive driving course. In the 37 years and million plus miles I've been driving, I've had to make one, maybe two "panic" stops....I've driven to 42 of the 50 States, 5 Canadian Provinces, I've driven in England...

Congratulations on your successful driving.

I just like to have the "Edge" on stopping power over the vehicle in front of me.

Well,

 

I just bought my Edge and I can tell the brakes are not quite where I would like for them to be. I will be investigating an upgrade for them. I have upgraded the brakes on several vehicles.

 

One thing that people often overlook when upgrading brakes is the shocks. A variable rate shock that cuts down on nose dive can have significant effect on braking. The less the nose dives the more force can be applied to the rear brakes to help stop the vehicle. It will also typically improve handling.

 

I am not quite sure what the issue is. The Rotors are certianly big enough to stop well. It may all boil down to over agressive ABS tuning....

Please keep us up to date on what you try and how it works.

If the speed limit is 65, do you worry about going 66?

 

You are really over analyzing this.

That might be true (the over analyzing part not the going 66 part) but up until a few weeks ago I did not know about X Plan prices. Then I joined this forum and the Blue Oval to find out more about the Edge and saw a thread on obtaining the X plan price. Shortly afterward, I saw the thread about Ford wanting to shut it down. That is what confused me so I started this thread to discuss it. You and the others here may have been through this before so it may look like over analyzing but it is my way to understand some of the background and rules.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. X plan rules haven't changed at all. You can still get one for friends and family.

 

What was happening with the BON forum is that dealers were actually telling customers (who were probably ready to buy anyway) to go to BON and get a X plan pin. There were a LOT of posts saying "just ordered one and need a PIN" or "did the deal, just need a PIN now". That's not what the X plan pins were intended for.

 

They're intended for Friends and Family of Ford employees and that's how they should be used.

I read a full writeup on the rules for the various plans that was posted on the Blue Oval.

The deep discount under invoice price that the A plan gives is for "relatives".

The X Plan which seems to be a no hassle "mini" deal at invoice is for

Friends & Neighbors:

An eligible Ford employee or retiree as noted below may sponsor up to four (4) PINs per calendar year to be used towards the purchase or lease of a new vehicle (see PIN Generation for details):

Selected individuals sponsored by a Ford Motor Company employee such as an extended family member (other than those identified as "immediate family members" referenced under Program Descriptions and Eligibility – AZ-Plan), friend or neighbor.

Sponsors must know the individuals they are sponsoring.

and they listed qualifying questions:

· Is the customer someone you feel you know and can trust? YES

· Did a dealership employee refer this customer to you? NO

· Are you receiving or being offered cash or gifts to sponsor this customer? NO

· Is this customer a government employee or official whose use of the Plan may be construed as influencing a public official? NO

· Is this customer considering purchasing a competitor's product? YES

It seems for an X Plan price the definition of the word "know" is the question. Is it "know" in person or "know" over the internet?

I just visited the plan site, and stand by my previous statement above.

AXZ-Plan PIN Restrictions

The PIN must be generated prior to a sales agreement being written.

PINs may NOT be given to dealership employees for use by a third-party customer.

Dealership employees may NOT be used as brokers to locate AXZ-Plan customers for the purpose of providing PINs.

Violating AXZ-Plan rules will result in suspension of AXZ-Plan eligibility and may result in termination of employment with the Company.

Guess they just didn't like you on that site. What did you do? Spam them with the 1000 questions about the brakes there also?

I started this discussion to try to understand if Blue Oval was shutting down the X Plan pin forum since I read the thread on their site

X-PLAN PIN FORUM CLOSING DOWN

I have not requested one because I am not yet ready to buy in the 30 day cycle and have not yet determined my vehicle of choice.

Do you always try to assume what others have done, are doing or will do? Just a suggestion, do not give up your day job to enter fortune telling.

You did catch the right rockfish (striped bass) not the rockfish that is from Alaska. Very good!

My dad is retired from Ford Aerospace.

 

If you want a X-plan pin, I can get one for you.

Thanks, I will keep you in mind if I can't find someone locally.

I must say this forum has its interesting characters.

Actually side bet running on the board was that you would have a *hitload of excuses not to buy anyways,

 

hey I WIN I WIN Whhhhoooooooooooooo Hooooooooooooooooooo YEA BABY!

What odds are you getting. If the prize is right I might be able to give you inside info on my purchase in a few months.

You don't need the internet. If you have a friend who is/was an employee, they can get you a number in about 3 minutes.

 

One phone call. Done.

No friends who are/were employees. Maybe I will have to ask around more but not sure if I will be successful since Ford does not have much of a presence in Maryland.

Here I am trying to narrow down my new vehicle selection and thought I would be able to obtain a good price on a 2008 Edge without a lot of hassle by obtaining a X pin on blue oval. I now see they have been asked by Ford to stop giving out X pins over the internet. Since price is a determining factor in my choice the competition will obtain one more mark. It will be at least one to three more months before my funding will allow the purchase so hopefully Ford will change this restriction.

Has anyone else seen the Blue Oval announcement and did you read it as they have to stop giving Pins over the internet?

I looked up the Porterfield web site and found the following:

"R4-S High Performance Street and Autocross

For high performance and heavy-duty street conditions. Perfect for prolonged everyday street use while also being capable of tolerating the most severe street use without any fade. Rotor friendly of course. The R4-S friction level will give you an impressive increase in stopping ability with very minimum pedal effort. R4-S compound has the absolute lowest noise and dust levels, far below OEM equipment or any other high performance brake material. Good for autocrossing, some drivers' schools, and rallies. The R4-S compound is available for virtually any vehicle sold in the US. We also offer the R4-S in pad sizes for competition type calipers that are used under street driven conditions. "

Are these the one you are saying has an anchor that drops when the brake petal is depressed. :hyper:

I did not see an Edge listing in their catalog but they say on their site they have brakes for most cars. It looks like the cost will be from $129 to $200. I can handle that and should be able to drop them in myself to save on labor costs.

Do you know of any test results that are available to show the advantage of Porterfield over OEM?

Rockfish, I think I understand your position on the Edge's brakes. I too feel that excellent brakes are important to not only the feeling of being safe but the reality of being safe while driving a vehicle. Over the decades, I've spent thou$and$ improving brakes on several vehicles, so I put my money where my mouth is.

 

In no particular order, here are some thoughts.

1. The AWD chassis has slightly larger front brakes, and the rotors are vented.

2. Porterfield R-4S (for 'street') pads do indeed have high friction hot and cold, in spite of another poster's comments. That combination, plus the fact that they're virtually dust free, makes them the best pads money can buy, IMO. Also, I've used them on 3 vehicles and NONE has squealed, so I don't know where that comment comes from.

3. I still plan to investigate Ford Motorsports brake systems for the front of my Edge.

4. ALL vehicles are compromises. The looks of the Edge appealed to me first, then its features, then its price. I'm 'fixing' those characteristics--exhaust and audio systems, unpainted exterior body parts, ugly wheels, etc.--I'm not happy with. I suggest you buy the best compromise you can find and then improve what needs it. I'm NOT at all nervous about my Edge's braking performance, but I'll still be investigating better brakes in a few months.

Jeffreybehr, this is the type of info I am looking for. some specifics on upgrading the stopping power. I spotted your discussions in the tech and mod areas of the forum and will be looking forward to reading about the results of some of the upgrades your guys are doing with the brakes.

I am looking at the FWD since I am not intending to do offroad driving and FWD seems to work for me in the rain and snow as long as I have good tread on my tires.

Please keep the forum updated with your findings regarding brake upgrades and thanks for your help.

But you're missing the point. Owners aren't complaining about the braking - only the magazine reviewers who used pre-production models. Owners who have actually tested the brakes say they work perfectly fine. You're getting carried away with test numbers much like some people get carried away with 0-60 numbers.

 

Find one with Michelin tires and you'll be fine. If you want to upgrade the pads that will help even more. Why do you need to see test numbers? Relax!

99.999% of the time the brakes stop a car without redesigning the bumper, hood or passenger compartment. I would like to even increase that precent more and have my next vehicle not give me unexpected opportunties to meet other people. I read my test numbers fom the Edmunds review that said

"The brakes are the major disappointment: Pedal feel is progressive, but during instrumented testing conducted at our test track, a 2007 Ford Edge test vehicle needed 152 feet to stop from 60 mph. Its competitors stop in the 120s."

If I decide on the Edge, I will obtain the new tires and possibly pads, rotors and calipers. Brakes are still one area on a car I can work on.

Why do you need to see test numbers?

I am from the school of thought that "trusts but verifies".

Thanks for the enthusiasm regarding the Edge. I can definitely see you guys are enjoying your vehicles.

I can also see why the beating a dead horse animation has been used. I looked back on discussions about brakes on this forum and some other forums and have read multiple discussion on brakes. This seems to be the only major concern regarding the Edge. There are a number of one off problems or tinsel and glitter suggestions but everyone seems very satisfied with their Edge EXCEPT for this one issue.

Has Ford given any guidance on this for 2008? I hope the dead horse animation is not Ford way of ignoring the one major concern with the Edge.

I may jump into some of the TECH threads to see if braking test results are available on upgraded pads and rotors. Fortunately, brakes are one of the areas on cars I can still work on myself.

Thanks for the positive feedback. You guys seem really satisfied with your Edge.

Don't you find it interesting that owners who know about the brake complaints don't seem to have a problem with them?

Thanks for the info. I am keeping track of the suggestions in case I purchase the Edge.

Yes, I do find it interesting that I do not read more discussion on this issue. It may be that the tests I read about were not valid or had extenuating circumstances. It may be owners have not had to panic stop yet. I am not sure what the answer is which is why I am asking the questions.

What I would like to read are results of tests that show braking at least as good as the Acadia even if the results are based on upgraded tires, rotors, pads and calipers.

Have you seen any stopping test results that support an improvement in braking.

If you upgrade your brake pads, you will stop sooner. Which means a shorter distance from when your foot first engages (and presses) the brake pedal til the time your vehicle comes to a complete stop.

Thanks for the reply.

Do you know of any tests that have been completed with upgraded pads? Which brands are best and how much will the stopping distance improve?

I have looked back on prior discussions in this forum and have seen some discussion on the stopping distance but did not see any conclusions or results on improvements with different tires or upgraded pads.

I also saw an article refering to vented rotors possibly helping. Have you heard this and what brands will fit without changing the calipers.