erikrichard

18 minutes ago, akirby said:

 

If it bothers you that much go trade it.

I knew that one was coming. I've thought about it, it does seem pretty stupid of me to keep a vehicle with a ticking time bomb inside the engine. I'm probably going to keep it and keep my fingers crossed, I don't drive much these days.

This has nothing to do with the stupid decision to make the wp timing chain driven though, it's still stupid even if I keep the Edge. Which is otherwise a great vehicle.

2 hours ago, Special_K said:

 

You know that every design has its weak points right?  Being an engineer myself you cant satisfy every requirement all the time, most likely this was a compromise and i bet it wont be done again with a new block.  Its literally cheaper to pay for replacement than to be resigned.  just accept its a flaw and move on ?

I'll try to remember your comforting words of wisdom if my wp ever turns my Edge into a 2 ton boat anchor.

2 hours ago, Waldo said:

 

 

Do you know of any manufacturers out there that recommend water pump replacements as part of scheduled maintenance?

 

The Edge and Fusion of the time were based on a Mazda platform.  It would have costs hundreds of millions of dollars to make the engine bay wider, and even then, would have resulted in a vehicle with poor turning circle and worse fuel economy.

No. Do you know of any manufacturers out there that recommend alternator or starter motor replacements as part of scheduled maintenance? Or even tires? Such a silly argument.

The real problem with this design is failure of a wear item like a water pump can destroy the engine. Forget that a wp replacement costs $2k, that's not the worst part of it. And it's happened to many, even under 150k miles. Do a search on Flex, Edge and Taurus 3.5l water pump failure. This design is indefensible, I actually find it pretty amusing there are people trying to defend such a dumb design. Ford should have designed an engine that would fit in these vehicles with an external wp. If that meant losing a few hp then so be it. If that meant that a 6 cyl engine was impossible, then whoever designed these vehicles with such small engine bays should have been fired and new vehicles should have been drawn up.

6 minutes ago, akirby said:

The pump is designed to last 150k miles just like all the other parts.  I personally know of at least 2 Edges with between 250k and 300k miles on the original water pump.  
 

But you can believe whatever you want to believe.

Thanks for giving me permission to have my own opinion. I give you the same.

14 minutes ago, akirby said:

 

Many companies use the same water pump design.  The problem was the seals not the pump location.  And it was designed to replace the 3.0L Duratec V6 in multiple vehicles.

 

I'm sure there are a dozen valid reasons why they didn't make it external.  They didn't just do it because they're stupid.

There is no advantage to a water pump being inaccessible, so I can't imagine any other reason for doing so other than to decrease the footprint of the engine so it would fit in their vehicles. 

I have never heard of a water pump that is designed for the life of a vehicle. In fact, water pumps have always been and always will be a wear item that is expected to be replaced during the life of the vehicle. So the problem isn't just the seals, even if seals don't fail the water pump is still likely to wear out over time and miles and need replacement. And then there is the biggest problem with this design, the likelihood of failure causing a destroyed engine. This idea should have never made it out of the boardroom.

On 1/7/2020 at 12:52 PM, akirby said:

 

Yes.

Not sure why you say yes. Apparently, Ford came out with this engine in order to use it in the Edge. Why in hell would they create an engine for a particular vehicle, that is not sized properly to fit in said vehicle unless they do something ridiculously stupid like stuff the water pump inside the engine? 

They should have either made the engine bays large enough for the Cyclone's water pump to be external, or designed a different engine. Their "solution" was moronic.

On 1/2/2020 at 5:24 PM, WWWPerfA_ZN0W said:

In all this hullabaloo, let's not forget that Ford created a groundbreaking vehicle, wellbalanced from both a performance and comfort point of view.  We should applaud them for what they did right as well.  Just my 2 cents.

Would it have really been that hard to either pick another engine or widen the engine bay another few inches to fit an external water pump? Yeah, it's a great vehicle otherwise, but this was a really stupid thing for Ford to do.

On 11/26/2019 at 6:27 AM, macbwt said:

 

I keep asking my self this same question.  When or if something happen I will know the answer.  Keep in mind dealer trade $$$$ is only 2200 dollars. LOL

I say go for a million miles on an original wp - the way you put on miles it could happen! 'Course I'm not going to buy you a new engine if things go bad so I don't blame you if you don't take my advice.

On 10/17/2019 at 10:54 PM, macbwt said:

LU is smiling at 296,000 soon.  Pretty sure 300,000 is going to happen before Christmas.   As a celebration after the first of the year LU will be receiving her first ever new water pump, chains, tensioners, guides etc.  Pretty sure it is time as the ole Duratec is making a bit of noise so pushing it just  a bit more.   This will be 15K more than the 2008 Edge ran.

Why not keep going just to see how long the original wp will go? chances are you will get warning with leaking if it does go, but if not its a 300k mile vehicle - is it really worth putting all that money into a new wp and chain anyway?

This exact thing happened to me with 2 of the 3 rear plugs, after googling wth was going on I learned this is a very common thing to happen. Shit design, don't blaim yourself.

On 9/12/2019 at 6:27 PM, Ralph31 said:

I understand the problem now. You don't understand the difference between a solution and a preventive measure.

 

For those who do, change your fluid every 30K miles and pray you're one of the lucky ones to get +100K miles from your water pump. 

I've researched this problem quite a bit, and based on that research plus the scads of vehicles using this engine/water pump configuration with way past 100k I see regularly for sale with no mention of wp or engine replacement, I've concluded that it is a very small % that have failed. The problem is that when it does fail it's either a very expensive new water pump replacement (relatively speaking) or a catostrophic engine failure - so it's a huge deal if it happens. 

My conclusion is the same for ptu failures - they are rare but if they happen it's a big deal and this is why it gets so much attention. So I disagree calling those with failed pumps regardless of miles "lucky", they are in fact the vast majority of owners of these engines. It's those with pumps (and ptus) that fail that are in fact unlucky.

1 hour ago, akirby said:

 

Depends on how they're taking it out and where they put it back in.  If it uses the transmission cooler lines they don't mix.

That's true.

As far as getting all the fluid out, I don't see why this is important. I'd bet doing a single drain/fill every 30k-50k miles you'd never have a transmission failure. The statement "its better than nothing" is way understated - it's a hell of a lot better than never changing it, and could very well be the difference between ending up with a failed transmission and never having an issue. 

On 8/1/2016 at 5:06 AM, macbwt said:

Just to clarify on the transmission service I have done. The machine takes a quart out then put a quart back in. then repeats the procedure while the engine is in operation. Basically it is a drain and fill but automated. 150 dollars and about 20-30 minutes of time.

This doesn't sound like a very efficient way to replace fluid. If you are removing and adding one quart at a time, every time you do it after the first quart you are actually removing a bit of the brand new fluid as it has already circulated with the old fluid. It seems to me that it's far better to do a complete drain and fill, as you are replacing half of all the old fluid with new in one go. The method you do would require a lot more than 5 quarts to achieve that 50-50 mixture of old and new fluid.

Suffering from old fuel invoices is a terrible affliction, better get that looked at. As far as what diesel engine will work in your 2008 Edge, any will do - it's a very simple process, just open the hood and dump your engine of choice right on top of the old 3.5l engine and you will be in business. 

Ford's maintenance schedule says to replace fluid for the first time at 150k miles. Not sure if it's a good idea to wait so long, but there it is. I'd drain/refill without any hesitation whatsoever if I were you.

The fluid on the right looks fine to me, dark red is perfectly normal at 33k miles, which is way too soon for a transmission fluid replacement in my opinion. It won't hurt anything but your pocketbook though. Next change for me would be 100k rather than in a couple hundred miles.

Why would that pose a problem? unless there was a crack I wouldn't worry about it.

What an f'ing nightmare. My Edge wp is good, but if it ever shts the bed and destroys the engine I'll just call the junkyard, get it towed and not replace it with a vehicle that uses this timing chain driven wp 3.5l engine. Hopefully it won't come to that.

Telescopic magnet?

Yes, that's it. 

8 hours ago, WWWPerfA_ZN0W said:

Timeline is skewed   Gold --> Specialty Green --> Orange

 

For your 2010, Specialty Green is appropriate.  Or something like Peak or Zerex or Prestone Universal Extended Life, if flushing out the old.

 

No idea if one OEM product is better than the other, or one can replace the other in your application.  Definitely do not go backwards in the timeline.  Frequency of coolant changes is likely more important anyway.

Thanks for clearing that up, I didn't realize the coolant after the green was different than the one before it. I'd like to see water pump failure rates among the different coolants used to see if they correlate but I know that's impossible. 

So someone please correct me if I don't have this right - Ford used the orange coolant until 2009, then changed it to the specialty green in 2010, then back to orange again in 2012 - why? I wonder if the coolant type had an impact on the numbers of failed water pumps for the different model years or if it's totally irrelevant which one you use. Anyone have an opinion? 

2 hours ago, akirby said:

 

Ok, so I'm just going to say this one more time and then I'm going to start deleting posts.

 

If YOU think that the safety benefits are worth the cost and you don't mind spending the money, great.   That doesn't mean other people feel the same way and their opinions are just as valid as yours because the probability of being in a serious accident is very very low.  It just comes down to what is more important to each person.

 

Now please let's leave it at that and move on.

You nailed it. I've been driving for 35 years and never had a serious accident. Actually, I've only had one and it was a fender bender. For a couple decades I had a business where driving was a big part of it, so I've driven somewhere between half a million and a million miles. Not to say it couldn't happen, but my 2010 Edge is a very safe vehicle compared to most I've owned before. These guys act like a 10 year olf vehicle is falling apart - the truth is my Edge looks, runs and drives like a 2 year old vehicle because I spent the time finding the right deal. However, and I'll leave this conversation with this last point, the $10k I spent on it represents a single year of depreciation a new Edge gets hit with. So, if by some incredibly low odds it suffers a catastrophic engine failure and ends up in the junkyard within the next year, I'm still ahead of where I'd be had I bought a new Edge a year ago. 

6 hours ago, Fingernip said:

The safety features were not a part of my reasoning in the purchase but i absolutely recognize them as a great improvement over my gen 1.5. Automatic braking can and will likely avoid an accident (severe or minor) in the lifetime of the vehicle. The accident avoidance feature (automatic steering) can absolutely be a great feature in the right conditions. The improved AWD system makes my gen 1.5 system look down right silly when considering snow/ice driving. Sure they both do the same task as an iphone 3 is functionally as capable as an iPhoneXs when it comes to its primary purpose but to someone who relies on a phone/car as a tool for daily life and has any need to improve productivity/safety/security newer is generally better. You don't really miss the new features until you have them but once you have them they become indispensable. 

Depreciation exists in a used car too. Unless you are willing to buy a 10+ year old car that has fully depreciated you will take several milestone equity hits. A 10+ year old car is pretty close to the end of its intended lifespan and its reliability and safety would be in question. It also doesn't provide the option of keeping it another 10 years unless you are willing to ignore the point of beyond economical repair. 

It totally depends on how that 10 year old vehicle was treated. A garaged and well maintained vehicle treated with care is a completely different thing than one that has been kept outside and treated like crap. I've seen vehicles with 200k that look better than vehicles with 20k. As in all things, the answer is "it depends."

I will say that vehicles just keep getting better and better. A 2010 vehicle driven today is going to be a WAY better 1990 vehicle driven in 2000, in general. I'm pretty blown away by advances in vehicle technology, but the depreciation game is as extreme as the msrp climb of new vehicles.

"Well, then expect a lot of "incoming" from erikrichard, because you've not only been "crazy enough" to acquire a new vehicle, but you've done so with zero equity & zero potential for retained value, if it keeps value relatively well."

Why would I respond to Jamie? he's not the one whining about depreciation, blaming poor reviewers for deeper depreciation losses (silly idea, the value of your 2019 is going to drop like a rock regardless of reviews) and justifying losing 30-40% of the value in 3 years with a bunch of safety features that have a small chances of ever actually making a difference in a severe crash, that is a low % chance of happening in the first place?