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About the_natrix

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  1. the_natrix

    PTU drain plug

    the design is reasonable, the biggest problem is the fact the lubricant cannot be drained for flushing or servicing. if they would integrate a drain plug then this issue would be avoided. If they would change to a much higher quality lubricant it would be reduced as a problem. apply both of these and add a 2 year drain/refill interval then you are laughing. Don't forget that ford has to compete with both price/quality and maintenance intervals of other manufacturers. Everyone is pushing for further and further maintenance intervals so this is a pressing issue, considering everyone wants to make appliances these days instead of maintainable machines I understand where they are coming from, so this mandates a much higher quality lubricant needs to be used.
  2. the_natrix

    PTU drain plug

    part numbers you will not find from ford. bearings are all SKF ring gear bearings both sides. BT1-0383/Q My local bearing company said they are not obtainable, however, looking online, they are. input pinion 32011X/Q and 32010X/Q easily obtainable. didnt need replacement. I could not get the transfer pinion needle bearing numbers... forgot. :D whoops.
  3. the_natrix

    PTU drain plug

    I left the albums open to the public for anyone who wants to see them. http://s159.beta.photobucket.com/user/the_natrix/library/Ford%20Edge%20PTU/Ford%20Edge%20PTU%20Servicing? First off, anyone needs to be a competent mechanic before doing this, and should already have read other people's PTU seal replacement DIY/instructions. Pro Tip. before you pull out the intermediate shaft, why not drain the ATF from the transaxle? I found nobody's proceedures did this but were happy to complain about the gushing flood of ATF once you pull the intermediate shaft. alittle forward thought goes a long way. The ATF drain is the 11mm looking plug on the bottom of the transaxle on the drivers side. There are 2 plugs, the lowest will drain most of the ATF. you only need to pull 1 gallon to prevent leakage/spillage during the PTU job. A nice empty clean 1 gallon jug and funnel can save headaches, buying atf, etc. Since the CAT and Y pipe must come out for the PTU to be removed, we will need to remove them as well as the front pipe of the exhaust system. Its easier to remove the front pipe since there is a nice factory clamp and mostly shit stainless exhaust so it will not be completely seized together. Zip it apart bang it a bit, it will come free. FYI anyone who has a hitch and a banging noise under accel/decel its because this joint was not assembled completely. You will need to pull the Catalytic converter to remove the PTU from the vehicle. This also means you need to remove the lower engine brace/mount to let you rock the engine around to free it. Do not forget to pull the cat's o2 sensor plug prior to pulling the cat out. I absolutely hate that ford decided to use 2 heat sheild bolts facing DOWN on the cat heat sheild. They are a bitch to remove. let me explain. The heat sheild is bolted to the cat, and to the engine block, but the bolts on the cat point from the interior of the heat shield down. they are rusted and a bitch to get at. Personally I just unbolted the engine block side and bent the heat sheild to get clearance to remove the cat. Afterwards i ground off the welded on nuts and flipped the assembly so the bolts were accessable from the exterior bottom of the heat shield. long story short once you have the PTU on the bench, you can see the barfing from the vent. Disassembly order for the PTU is this. 1. remove the plastic deflector. Use smarts on this but a good prying and cracking will remove it. do not damage the input shaft. be careful. 2. unscrew the perimiter bolts, they are 10mm. 3. tap the housing to free it, there are pry lugs on the perimiter but the front and rear pry lugs are closest to the assembly dowels. 4. once the housing is off, you are free to see the sludge/gunk and internals of the PTU. 5. The Ring gear must be removed first, then the transfer pinion and finally the input pinion and output pinion. \\ 6. There are spacer shims for the transfer pinion. Mine had 1 acting as a thrust washer. 7. if you remove any bearings there may be spacer shims on them, the ring gear absolutely has them as this is a critical alignment for this assembly. 8. Re assembly is the reverse of that order. however you can bench install the seals without any special tools other than cups/disks that fit the sizes of the seals. Here are the actual steps from my job with photos. I am starting at the point most people would be at for the passanger side intermediate shaft seal replacement. http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t159/the_natrix/Ford%20Edge%20PTU/Ford%20Edge%20PTU%20Servicing/KICX5263_zps2bd37861.jpg at this point the intermediate shaft is removed, as is everything needed to get to the seal. Next we must remove the Cat. http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t159/the_natrix/Ford%20Edge%20PTU/Ford%20Edge%20PTU%20Servicing/KICX5270_zps3c919c0b.jpg With the Cat and the lower mount gone there are 5 bolts holding the PTU to the engine/transaxle. remove those and we can then rotate the engine forwards/up and acheive clearance to pull the ptu out http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t159/the_natrix/Ford%20Edge%20PTU/Ford%20Edge%20PTU%20Servicing/KICX5271_zpsc62bb887.jpg ps look at that vent barf http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t159/the_natrix/Ford%20Edge%20PTU/Ford%20Edge%20PTU%20Servicing/KICX5272_zps69223f4f.jpg with the PTU on the bench, you can tilt it to the pass side up, and knock off the deflector disk. Then zip off the 10mm bolts to get the cover off. http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t159/the_natrix/Ford%20Edge%20PTU/Ford%20Edge%20PTU%20Servicing/KICX5274_zps071eab87.jpg cover gone http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t159/the_natrix/Ford%20Edge%20PTU/Ford%20Edge%20PTU%20Servicing/KICX5275_zps5630545f.jpg At this point, if you havent already drained the PTU, tip her over and pour her out. once you are here, check if its worthy to salvage or not. hit the hypoid gears with some brake clean to see how their drive faces look. http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t159/the_natrix/Ford%20Edge%20PTU/Ford%20Edge%20PTU%20Servicing/KICX5279_zpsa5db7701.jpg you want a nice polished look, no scarring, or rough bits. mine looks good. The idea at this point is to clean everything up as best you can with parts cleaner/degreaser or paint thinner. Then reassemble it. Verify all your bearings look good. one of mine was bad, from the ring gear. it was also locally unobtainium. I could order online but it would be quite a while with the car off the road, so since I had a spare PTU that was junk, I salvaged the bearings from it. http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t159/the_natrix/Ford%20Edge%20PTU/Ford%20Edge%20PTU%20Servicing/KICX5307_zps5356990d.jpg left side has a nice scar in the bearing, the right side cone bearing has no damage. some creative use of gear puller got the bearings off without damage. you can install all the seals in advance on the bench before final assembly. lube everything lightly with either motor oil, gear oil, or atleast wd40 to prevent snagging/tearing the seals during assembly. some of the ford seals come pre lubed with grease so dont remove that. the input side of the PTU consists of the compression seal, and 2 shaft seals that are identical. the parts guy knows the seals but you need 2 of them as there is one facing either direction to stop ATF from mixing with your gear oil. put all the gears back in it, and then apply a bead of grey RTV around the perimiter. bolt it together using common sense and a 2 torque bolt pattern and you should be ok. I waited to refill my PTU until it was in the car so I could ensure a good drain too, since I installed my drain plug for servicing of the PTU. With the location I called out earlier, your drain plug will be perfectly located. You only need to remove the heat sheild from the lower engine mount to access the drain plug and drain it. A smart idea is to use a hex head drain plug so it is tool accessable/installable as the free space is limited. http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t159/the_natrix/Ford%20Edge%20PTU/Ford%20Edge%20PTU%20Servicing/KICX5315_zps7a4ea2a9.jpg draining. http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t159/the_natrix/Ford%20Edge%20PTU/Ford%20Edge%20PTU%20Servicing/KICX5321_zps0f28717e.jpg filling http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t159/the_natrix/Ford%20Edge%20PTU/Ford%20Edge%20PTU%20Servicing/KICX5319_zps4afcf209.jpg go ahead and browse the album. You will find mostly everything is photographed. the only other hiccup I had was the transfer pinion. It has a pair of needle bearings to ride on and it seems one of the needle sets also partially locates the gear in the PTU during assembly. This needle bearing set seemed to have moved and was then rubbing on the ptu's driver side of the housing. This required some deburring from the PTU housing and I use my press to relocate the needle bearing to it's original location. I beleive this happened as the sludge issue plugged up the shaft's oil feed holes that supply oil to the transfer pinion's needle bearings. I must say, I am very glad I was topping up and overfilling my PTU like a mad man to prevent damage as it seems to have paid off. I really really strongly recommend anyone capable to install their own PTU drain plug and drain and refill their PTU with quality lubricant. FYI mine is a 2007 and has 90k on it. So this seems to be an issue that can save owners and FORD alot of headaches if they would make it a serviceable item.
  4. the_natrix

    PTU drain plug

    good news! the PTU is fine. very minor scuffing on the hypoid gears. Im happy as a clam! Pics will come but to address the lubricant questions. Considering the rear end is a hypoid set and is mandated a 85w140 there is a reason for this. Hypoid sets are bevel gears with their drive axes offset. This causes sliding against the gear teeth. This sliding action is by design but requires a good lubricant. The hypoid set in the rear has less drive axes offset than the PTU. This means it is more efficient and produces less sliding on the gear teeth. The hypoid set in the PTU by contrast has a bigger offset than the rear end, this causes more sliding, less efficiency and requires a lubricant that has better shear stability and better pressure resistance. Just on completely stupid logic alone, considering both are hypoids, they both see the same loads, they both see the same RPMS, they should both use the same gear oil. I am refilling mine with 85w140 100% synthetic, and adding a bit of moly. I plan to also provide mine with a YEARLY change interval for the gear oil since I am installing a drain plug. Considering the amount of sludge my PTU had, and infact some lubricant paths were plugged with sludge (including the vent separator system), I recommend anyone with the capability do so to theirs at earliest convinience to install a drain plug and do the lubricant changes. I beleive a fill of 75% gear oil and 25% ATF can effectively desludge most of the PTU in 3 changes - probably 6 months or a year of moderate driving. However you also need to inspect the PTU to verify that it is fine. I found a very EASY way to do this. I'll elaborate more tomorrow when I am done and I get all my pictures up Cya soon.
  5. the_natrix

    PTU drain plug

    there is a fill plug already included it is on the passanger side. 3/8 square head drive, standard american fill plug. i agree with your statements but I can only see one reason why the fluid is turning into grease/tar in there based on the current design and that is due to lubricant quality AND ability to service said fluid. I will have my edge in the garage next week so I hope I can get to the PTU. The first things are shocks/struts and wheel bearings. Then with that out of the way i plan on getting to the PTU last then an oil spray. I have been keeping my PTU filled/topped up like a freak (one advantage of owning a hoist) so hopefully that will have paid off. but if not, cest la vie.
  6. the_natrix

    PTU drain plug

    Here are the pictures, Sorry, for some reason photobucket doesnt want to work here correctly http://s159.beta.photobucket.com/user/the_natrix/library/Ford%20Edge%20PTU However, let me go over this breifly. With the PTU on the bench, the deflector removed from the pass side and unbolt all the 10mm bolts, carefully and gently pry the case halves apart after tapping the casing free. Be aware there are dowels holding the casing in alignment. http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t159/the_natrix/Ford%20Edge%20PTU/KICX5247_zps657541df.jpg this is what you are left with, a nasty sludge filled mess. Anyways, back to the gears and what we need to see http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t159/the_natrix/Ford%20Edge%20PTU/KICX5249_zpsd9e7afbc.jpg As you can see the gear rotation patterns in normal driving will cause the back half of the hypoid ring gear to kick up oil and feed it to the vent / separator unit. The faster you go the more oil is pumped there by the gears. If the separator tube (basically a horizontal tube, capped on one end, with the vent on the top and the drain on the bottom) is plugged at the drain, and has alot of sludge, the sludge will form a ramp scooping the oil into the separator with nowhere to do since the drain is plugged. it must be pumped out of the vent. http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t159/the_natrix/Ford%20Edge%20PTU/KICX5250_zps24f9b30f.jpg You can see that there is no visable light out of the tube's drain. http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t159/the_natrix/Ford%20Edge%20PTU/KICX5252_zpsaacff766.jpg In this photo you can see the drain has been fingered clear. http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t159/the_natrix/Ford%20Edge%20PTU/KICX5253_zps9e722462.jpg Thats the barfing issue. Its not the engineers fault, blame the accountants for the shitty lubricant, sludging and plugging the vent separator system. Finally here is the drill location if you want to drill your PTU for a drain. On the bottom of the PTU you will find this location. Next to the bottom disassembly tab, you will move back from the front of the PTU to one bolt location on the casing bolt pattern. http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t159/the_natrix/Ford%20Edge%20PTU/KICX5259_zpsa1d99c9f.jpg you will clearly see this location and it is the SAFEST location to drill and tap for a plug. It will leave about 3/16" (3-4mm) of undrained oil, but you can just double flush to get it 100% gone. This location will allow you to drill and hit NO gears however I recommend you do not let the drain plug extend into the casing more than 5mm. If you know how to properly drill and tap NPT then this is no problem. Use grease on the tap to eliminate chips, and a drill collar to prevent drilling deeper than necessary. Drill depth should not go beyond 3/4 inch into the casing but for the love of god, DRILL CAREFULLY! feel free to browse the album for any more info. however...... YMMV
  7. the_natrix

    PTU drain plug

    Hi all long time lurker here, owned a 07 ford edge awd since 2011. I am a pretty stong audi mechanic, and I refuse to drive anything not AWD as my personal vehicles. Anyways cut the crap and into the meat and potatoes of the issue. There are 3 failure modes for leaking of the PTU. First the Shaft seal will leak from the output shaft seals on the Passanger side of the vehicle. Ford pretty much has this covered as updated parts, and proceedures to replace the offending seals with newer design units and ensure a leak free setup. I'm not really going to go into it much since everyone and their brother has done so before. Second, the compression seal between the PTU and Transmission can go. From what I do know this is a pretty rare event. The seal is held between the transmission and PTU pretty securely and no debris can really make their way there. If you EVER remove the PTU for whatever reason, replace that seal! Last, and the one i want to focus some effort on is the VENT leak. This is where the PTU will start vomiting up fluid from the PTU case vent. I had this happening to me with reasonable frequency to cause concern. It normally only happens when I am driving over 60mph/100kph and leaves a nice immeadiate puke once parked or stopped but never leaves puddles in the driveway (mostly cause i slow down to well under 60mph long before I get home) It causes the stinky smell when the gear oil drips onto the exhaust at stoplights. Anyone looking at their PTU and seeing alot of black stains and fluid on it can clearly distinguish a VENT VOMIT from the fact there appears to be no leaks around the Pass Side Shaft seal. It make confuse you to think it is a compression seal, but it is not as the stains proceed up higher on the PTU. If you have a small mirror and flashlight you can confirm it by looking above and down onto the PTU. Ford may say that the PTU is overfilled and causing this, however that is only true if it actually is overfilled. By design the transmission cannot leak ATF directly into the PTU so this is implausible, and I know most owners are not running around overfilling their PTU's just because..... sooo.... I bought a shot PTU on eBAY to disassemble and see WTF is going on. I will post pictures but that will wait for tomorrow. The problem is the vent case is setup with its own little oil/air separator. However the problem is this is defeated because of the gear oil selection ford has chosen. No big fault in them other than saying the PTU is filled for life. IMHO the PTU should be flushed after the first 15K with new fluid, and this means installing a drain plug in the PTU (easy and something I plan to do). Anyways the gear oil gets a moly additive which is great! but the gear oil also seems to be of a quality not high enough to stand usage in the PTU for the real life of the vehicle (7-10 years in my opinion). What is worse, is if you actually do develop a low gear oil event due to a seal leak, and the PTU takes a beating from it, well now you have even more crap that the oil has to deal with and will definately plug up the case vent system. What is going on is there is a large ring gear to finally drive the center shaft, this gear spins right beside the VENT. Now before all you jump on board and say this is a design problem it is not. There is nothing wrong with this and once i post pics you will understand. The problem is when the vent system does fail this ring gear will act as a pump and force lube up into the vent system for it to vomit forth all over the ptu and exhaust. What is causing the vent system to fail then? debris. normal break in debris, metal filings naturally caused during the normal wear in process, along with the moly additive acting like glue, and lastly the lower quality gear oil used. This turns the gear oil into a tar/grease that plugs up the designed in oil/gas separator in the vent for the PTU. With that oil gas separator gone and the ring gear now starting to pump oil right next to the vent is the reason it is being forced out the vent. The solution is if you know your PTU is good 2 fold. Clear/clean the vent system, and replace with high quality gear oil. 1. you could just do successive fluid changes until all that grease is disolved away. Time consuming and maybe annoying too. but it would eventually work. 2. you could also install a drainplug and with the car in the air, pop the vent cap off and spray brake clean in there hoping it works. While your at it you will also be spraying any debris back into those lovely taper bearings:D so I do not recommend this. 3. You could do what I recommend. and disassemble the PTU. This is tedious but easy. Once it is off the car, it is mandatory that you knock off the deflector, but you do not need to remove the seals (although why you wouldnt replace them at this points baffles me). I beleive it may even be possible to disassemble the PTU on the car, but you would still need to replace the Pass side shaft seal/deflectors. There are a few 10mm bolts holding the casing half on, spin those off after you shatter off the deflector and the rest is simple physics of tapping and wiggling the case cover off it's alignment dowels. Once you see the PTU you can remove the large ring gear and or all the gears and rinse it down. I normally use paint thinner or parts cleaner, but do not use water based stuff, you want to avoid rust. make sure you do not lose track of the bearings positions or any shims, if you do your in for a big annoying time. Clean all the gunk out and inspect the output gears to the center shaft. My eBay unit suffered galling on the hypoid gears due to lack of lubricant, no big surprize considering where I bought it, but I knew it was for disection purposes. If yours has been quiet but has minor gear wear, we might as well just keep going. You could get a new unit if you have warrenty or feel like spending the money, but in the mean time your original unit was working despite the damage, why stop now? anyways assembly is reverse of removal, do not forget to seal up the case half with Ultra Grey sealant or ford sealant. Same they use on all their drivetrain stuff. I prefer the ultra grey and have been using it on Audi's for years with no issues. I hope to improve this post with photos from the donor/experimental unit and then again update them with photos of my own PTU job on my Edge over the christmas holidays. I will also provide people with the correct location for a 1/2 NPT drainplug on the PTU so they can make their own mods and improvements. NOTHING and I repeat NOTHING should ever be "Filled for life" total bullshit. Ford, Audi, Rolls Royce, does not matter. everything needs a fluid change interval. YMMV
  8. the_natrix

    DIY PTU Seal Fix?

    Hey Pete. I've been a lurker on these boards, normally an Audi fan but I have an edge as a DD. Had them as rentals alot and enjoyed it so i bought one. Do you have your write up for this procedure? Pics? Id appreciate any help. If you like you can just email me the pics to save yourself time I want to tackle this job myself, but I am not sure of how much time it would take or the parts cost. FYI, I am a pretty good mechanic myself, and have been wrenching on nearly everything for years. Current job has me traveling alot, so I want to get this done in one shot. Thanks in advance! Nate