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JohnCT

Edge Member
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Everything posted by JohnCT

  1. One of the confusing things about replacing the PTU was whether the intermediate shaft seal was also required when replacing the PTU as the procedure for installing a new PTU says to replace it anytime the PTU is removed. Here's the conclusion; if you buy a new PTU from Ford, it comes with the intermediate shaft seal pre-installed. The Edge, Explorer, Flex, and Taurus are front wheel drive based platforms with transverse engines. The left side of the automatic feeds the left wheel directly with the typical axle arrangement you'd find on any FWD car, and this is the same for the FWD or AWD versions. In the case of AWD, the PTU/transfer case is bolted to the transmission right over the output where the intermediate shaft would normally be. The intermediate shaft goes straight through the PTU and into the transaxle. There are two splines on the intermediate shaft: the first spline connects the shaft to the transmission, the second spline connects the shaft to the PTU. So the intermediate shaft transfers power from the transmission to both the PTU and the right side axle. If the intermediate shaft is ever removed, the seal in the PTU must be changed if the PTU is not replaced. Again, the new PTU comes with the shaft seal installed, so you don't need to buy the intermediate shaft seal... or do you? Here's where it gets weird: Ford has a "tool" which is a 0.50 cent plastic slip guide and a grab handle which is first inserted into the shaft seal before the intermediate shaft is installed. The intermediate shaft slides into the tool and into the PTU and the seal is protected from damage from the spline by the plastic tool. Once the shaft is most the way in, the tool is pulled out. The only way to obtain this tool is by buying the intermediate shaft seal (the one the new PTU has preinstalled). So if you buy the PTU, you must also buy *another* intermediate shaft seal just to obtain the tool. Once the PTU is installed, you'll have the tool (you can use it more than once IMO) and an extra shaft seal. I'm not sure if was dumb of Ford not to include the protective tool with the new PTU or if they figure you'll need another shaft seal in 25K miles anyway. As for the job, it took me almost 10 hours on jack stands. With a lift it should be much less. The complete exhaust must come out first. Then the right side axle. Disconnect the drive shaft u joint from the output of the PTU and wire off to one side. The cat must be removed, and I had to drop the back of the subframe to allow enough clearance to remove the cat and PTU. I wasted too much time trying not to drop it. It only takes a few minutes to drop the subframe so my advice is to do it that way. Leave the front bolts in the sub and remove the rest. I used a floor jack to help support the sub in order to loosen and then reinstall the subframe. There is a mounting bracket on the cat that's in the way and would be easy to remove to provide more exit clearance except the bolts go through the top side where they are inaccessible. If the catch nuts were welded on the top side, it would be two minutes to remove the bolts from the bottom. Giving this some more thought, you can probably bend the bracket to get the cat out, then swap the catch nuts to the other side (tack weld) and install the bracket after the cat is remounted. The intermediate shaft support bracket has 5 bolts, two of which are very difficult to get to. I did a post-mortem on the old PTU apart to see what happened, and *every* gear had almost every tooth knackered or chipped. Chunks were missing, yet no large pieces were found, mostly powdered iron. There was no oil, just sludge. Looked like moly grease inside. I put the gears through a parts cleaner to get a better look, and they are absolutely blasted. I can email pictures to anyone who wants to see them. Strangely, none of the bearings seemed damaged. This looks like a straight gear set failure. My original plan was to drill and tap the new PTU for routine servicing, but I've since replaced the car with a new Jeep and gave the Edge to my sister. My wife just didn't trust it. I had gone away from Ford in the 90s but took a chance on this car as a "probationary' Ford. If it got through 150K miles without a major systems failure, I'd buy another. Good chance it would have been the MKX. But I'm done. The 66 Mustang in the garage is the last Ford I'll own, but I digress. If anyone has any questions about replacing the PTU give me a shout and I'll help you the best I can. The procedure for the Explorer, Flex, MKX, and Taurus should be almost identical. John
  2. My sister went to have new tires installed on her 2009 AWD, and the tire shop couldn't get one of the lug nuts off on the right front. I took a quick look at it and the stud itself is spinning in the hub (I opened a hole on the decorative outer trim cap to see the stud center). Is there enough room behind the hub to tack weld the stud down to the back of the hub in order to pull the wheel off? She's going back today because they said they could change the stud, but in case they run into a problem, I'd like to know what my options are. If we can get it apart, I'll change the hub/bearing. Also, are these front hubs problematic where it might be better to replace both front hub/wheel bearings? Thanks. John
  3. I ordered a AT4Z7251D for my wife's Edge from a buddy with connections. He called me back to say that part was discontinued with no sub. I emailed Tasca Ford and they told me the same thing. I then asked if the G version I'd seen on line would sub and they said there was no sub. They suggested a salvage part. Since the lifespan of these is between 30K and 80K miles (we got to 55K) that's out of the question. Panicked, I found a listing for an new Ford part and ordered it. I got an email from the company said the part was superceded by the G which they billed me extra for and shipped. So this Ford dealer says the G replaces the D but Tasca Ford said no. Is there any significant difference between the G and the D and is the G indeed an official sub? John
  4. JohnCT

    Spark Plugs

    My sister's 09 set a code last week for a #3 misfire (front of the engine) so I tossed in an NGK plug I picked up locally to get her going. The original misfiring plug was gapped over .09. I ordered a set of Motorcraft plugs, Motorcraft coil boots, Motorcraft PCV valve, and Felpro intake plenum gaskets and changed them Saturday. These plugs are supposedly pregapped but they were inconsistent. Half of them needed to be tweaked. All the rest of the remaining original plugs were in the same shape with over .085 and up gap measured. At 90K miles, these plugs were probably at least 20K beyond their expiration. And just like the old Escapes, a misfire will damage the coil drivers in the PCM and require replacement or rebuild of the PCM, so it's prudent to replace the plugs *before* they misfire. The total job took about 90 minutes and required no special tools. Just a basic socket set, a channel lock pliers to squeeze a hose clamp that held a hose onto the plenum, and a "cats claw" tool to help pop out the wire looms. It may seem daunting at first but removing the upper intake plenum is very easy. Just remember to stuff rags into the intake runners after the plenum is removed lest you drop something down the intake and into the engine (that's bad folks.) There is information both on the web and on this site from other members for the procedure so I won't describe it except to say it's an easy job. Don't be afraid to change the plugs yourself, and make sure you do BEFORE you get a misfire and damage your PCM. John
  5. JohnCT

    Rebuild Cost of Engine

    I gotta tell you, if the engine has 30K miles on it I wouldn't touch anything on it - just plug and play. Okay, I'd probably change the plugs as long as it's on the engine stand but that's it. At 30K miles, the engine is for all intents and purposes virtually new. John
  6. JohnCT

    PTU discontinued by Ford

    Thanks for the info. My sister has the Edge now and I'll change her coolant before the winter. What brand of coolant have you been using? John
  7. JohnCT

    PTU discontinued by Ford

    All cars have problems, even Jeeps. But I've owned an 88 Sable, 95 Sable, two 95 Windstars, 2004 Escape and a 2005 Escape (bought used to replace the Windstars in my business). Both Sables needed transmissions. Fortunately, I specifically ordered the 3.0 Vulcan V6s because they were available so no engine problems. Both Windstars blew transmissions and both needed their Essex V6 engines rebuilt because of head gaskets. Both Escapes needed the CD4E transmissions rebuilt. The only Ford that was bullet proof was my 2000 Explorer Sport that I specifically ordered with a manual because the automatics were known to be junk. Between the German Cologne 4.0 and the Japanese (Mitsu) manual transmission, the power train gave me no trouble. BTW, all the above failures were known issues from the day they were put in production and never addressed. The 2002 Jeep Grand Cherokee we bought new now has about 300K miles on it, and it's on it's original engine, original automatic trans, and original transfer case. In all this time I've replaced the cooling fan, fan controller, passenger side power window regulator, the coil pack and last week the alternator. All these things I did in my driveway except for a vacuum line leak that a garage smoked out (rubber lines at charcoal canister near gas tank). My son still has this Jeep and it's still running well. I bought a Jeep Compass to replace one of the Escapes and a new Grand Cherokee for my wife. There were not many bigger Ford fans around than I was, but it reaches a point of absurdity, and I'm there now. And as Bigblock says above, it's a shame. Ford really did their homework on the NVH of the Edge. It's as tight, smooth, and silent a ride as I've ever experienced. The resale is in the toilet because it's typical Ford major systems failures have become known. If Ford snuffed these problems out early in production instead of making the owners cover the costs, resale on Ford products would be much higher. John
  8. JohnCT

    PTU discontinued by Ford

    Hijack away. This is important information to anyone who still has an Edge. Hopefully, something as innocuous as a silly water pump didn't destroy your engine. Hmmm... burying a water pump inside the timing cover... what could go wrong? I left Ford in the early 2000s because of constant auto trans problems and the Essex V6 engine failures (I've had them all). We bought the Edge because my wife liked it, we got a good deal on it, and I had heard that GM had a lot to do with the Edge's transmission design, so I took a chance. The PTU going out at 50K has taught me that sometimes you just can't go home. The Edge is gone and I'm back with Jeep. The last Ford I'll own is one I bought the year I got married: a 1966 Mustang 2+2 bought in 1985. I'll keep this car and give it to my son when I'm all done driving, but Ford has bitten me for the last time. John
  9. JohnCT

    PTU discontinued by Ford

    Do you mean *literally* into the oil pan? Coolant in the oil will strip the babbitt off the bearings and destroy the engine in a very short time. John
  10. JohnCT

    PTU replacement hints and info

    Sure, they're fair game.. John
  11. JohnCT

    PTU discontinued by Ford

    Although the PTU has a fairly severe angle on the ring and pinion, it's otherwise just a gear box with no clutches. It's hard to believe that it's just friction alone (particularly since it's all roller bearing) that could cause synthetic fluid breakdown of this magnitude, which is why I believe the PTU's proximity to the cat is a huge contributing factor. It's tiny fluid capacity is another contributing factor, but still points back to unmitigated heat gain. I have no evidence, but logical speculation would suggest that Ford designed and prototyped several examples of the PTU which were run with full torque to see how the box could cope with stress and heat. I would assume the box would have to have passed these bench tests before production was ordered. My speculation is that the environment the PTU experiences as installed in these platforms was an unforeseen problem that caught Ford by surprise. I unloaded my Edge after installing a new PTU, but if I was going to keep it, the plan was to fabricate and install a heat shield and airflow diverter and monitor the temperatures before and after with a thermocouple to test the effectiveness of it. John
  12. History: this 2009 Edge sat for about 8 months with a junk PTU, so the battery naturally went dead sometime during the winter. Before pushing it to the end of the driveway to ferment, everything except the PTU worked normally, including the radio/nav which my wife used daily. Last week I finally replaced the PTU, bought a new battery, gave it a 50 miles shakedown cruise where everything worked as it should and gave the car to my sister who needed one. Today she called me to tell me the radio and nav are acting up. Yesterday, none of the controls on the radio proper worked, but she was able to affect a radio station and volume change by using the controls on the steering wheel. Today the radio controls on the unit itself are again working but the nav unit is giving incorrect information, directions, and not updating position. I'm stopping by tomorrow to see what's going on but does it seem a battery disconnect procedure might help this, or is there a firmware update procedure that might help? Any insight greatly appreciated. John
  13. JohnCT

    2009 Sync wonky

    Or even less! If you search "Ford" "GPS" and "Pink", you get this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/mini-GPS-Active-Antenna-Fakra-SMB-Pink-H-jack-3M-Cable-for-ford-lincoln-Mercury-/281126337095?epid=668911223&hash=item41746f7a47:g:JZwAAOxyIAZRx7P8 It seems that the Chinese aftermarket has these covered, and by the number of various knock offs available and the amount of them they sell for all brands of cars, it would appear these active antennas are troublesome. John
  14. JohnCT

    2009 Sync wonky

    Got it! Next time I see the car I'll pull the radio and check the ant connection and NOT waste my time with the shark fin at the back (which I was ready to pull out). My sister said today that the map is actually updating and is closer to home, but still has the "no gps" indicator. Hopefully, it's a marginal connection or an antenna issue at worst. When I get it sorted out I'll post the solution. John
  15. JohnCT

    PTU discontinued by Ford

    We know how many Ford made, but do we really know how many fail? When the Jeep dealer asked about our trade, I told him it was an Edge and had a problem. *He* asked if it was the PTU. Seems they had a bunch of Explorers and Flex' they took on trade that they had to replace them in. I laughed, told him yes, and I had the new PTU in a box in the back and he still didn't want it despite it being a loaded Limited pearl white with vista roof and nav. The word is out. When I brought one of my Escapes in for a trans rebuild a couple of years ago, I asked the owner (independent shop) how the Edge trans were, and he told me the PTUs were far more trouble. It was then that I suspected the noise and vibration I was hearing was not the rear wheel bearing. Maybe. I don't pretend to know for sure, but there's definitely a chicken or the egg thing going on. Somebody here who is reported to be "in the know" said the problem could be a one time overheat of the PTU fluid, so regular maintenance would not prevent this (I had suggested a long term coking of the fluid). It could very well be a seal failure leading to loss of fluid leading to overheating of the remaining fluid due to less of it and more friction with less lubrication. The other possibility is that the box just gets too damned hot causing the seal to fail from the scorching heat, or failing due to loss of lubrication by the scorched fluid. Again, chicken or the egg. The other thing that bothers me is that the PTU is mostly free wheeling; the majority of engine torque is transferred to the front wheels through the intermediate shaft, not the PTU. Also, there are no clutches in the PTU. Is it really possible that this box generates that much heat without handling that much torque just from friction losses? Perhaps. Again, I'm not a mechanical engineer. Back when I planned to keep the Edge, I was going to mount a thermocouple on the far side off the PTU (away from the cat) and measure the temperature of the PTU during stop and go, highway driving, and pulling long hills (which we live among around here). If the PTU showed steady temperatures well within the capability of the lube, it would make sense that a leak might be the trigger. But if the PTU showed wildly differing temps, then my plan was to fabricate a heat shield and air deflector to keep the cat's heat off the PTU and redirect airflow under the car over the PTU. I took a far easier path and gave the car to my sister. Other than the Nav acting up right now, she absolutely loves this car. John
  16. JohnCT

    2009 Sync wonky

    Thanks sir. Yes, I had tried that yesterday and first had zero satellites, later I tried it and it said 2 or 3, I can't remember which, but the car was outside with no tree cover whatsoever, and it was clear day as well. Open shot to the sky. The Sat antenna is the bump on the top of the air deflector on the rear hatch, yes? I've read other references that mention the antenna being behind the radio under the dash pad, but I'm pretty sure it's out back. Next time I see the car I'll pull the antenna out and check the connections, clean them and try adding some dielectric grease to it/them. Strange that when Googling the "no gps" symbol, everyone who posted mentioned this happened after a dead battery. Odd. John
  17. JohnCT

    2009 Sync wonky

    When checking the radio today, I found it mostly functional. What doesn't work is the Nav. There's a box with a NO GPS indicator in the upper left hand corner. It thinks the car is some 20 miles away from where it actually is, and won't change as the car is driven. It also won't allow the time to be set (the buttons are greyed out). I tried pulling the four fuses for half an hour, and no joy. I disconnected the battery for 10 minutes and I remain without any joy. I tried a Master Reset (no help there) and a restore default that would supposedly sync something to the nav or gps (can't remember) and it's still unaware of where it is. Any ideas? GPS antenna perhaps? John
  18. JohnCT

    PTU replacement hints and info

    Came with a 5/60 power train. Under mileage but over time... John
  19. JohnCT

    PTU discontinued by Ford

    I was thinking about it, but it took longer than I expected to get the old one out that I just kept going and installed the new one without drilling it. I was so over being underneath that car! Besides, I suspect the PTUs only fail under severe duty - like driving up hills or doing 65 for several hours. My sister will use it for grocery shopping and visiting mom. She won't put 15K miles on that car in the 10 years she probably has left driving and I doubt it will ever be driven past 45 MPH again or even driven in the snow. John
  20. JohnCT

    2009 Sync wonky

    This is the list I found. So there are four fuses radio related that I can see; 3, 13, 28, and 39 plus #38 which is the subwoofer (unlikely to cause system control issues). When I stop by to see the car tomorrow I'll pull those fuses out while having coffee. Thanks for the info, I'll report back. John #3 Sync #13 Sat Radio #28 Radio #38 Subwoofer/Amp #39 Radio
  21. JohnCT

    PTU replacement hints and info

    Here are some pics of the inside of the PTU after the gears were run through a parts washer. Enjoy. The damage is quite extensive, and the chunks of gears breaking off explain the loud banging and severe jolt in the car as this started coming apart. Considering that there's no shear pin in the torque path, I'm fortunate that the PTU didn't destroy the transmission. Acceptable at 50K miles? You tell me...
  22. JohnCT

    PTU replacement hints and info

    I'm going to see if I can post them here. Right now I'm trying to figure out how to get pictures off this stupid LG Nexus 5 phone. None of the online procedures match my phone's menus. One way or the other I'll get them up and/or emailed. John Edit: here's a link to the pics. http://imgur.com/a/ylvKS
  23. JohnCT

    PTU discontinued by Ford

    Update: Right before Thanksgiving, the PTU all but blew up. It was jerking badly and sounded like someone shooting ball bearings at the bottom of the car when it moved. I had previously purchased the PTU, but didn't have the time to change it before Christmas, so my wife picked out a new 2017 Grand Cherokee Limited 4X4. I was going to trade the Edge but neither of the two Jeep dealers wanted it with a bad PTU even though I was going to include the part in the trade. They suggested I put it on Craigslist and get what I could for it. I pushed it to the end of the driveway and there it's sat for the last 10 months. Fast forward many months later and my sister suddenly needed a car, so I thought that since she's older and puts few miles on the car, I would put the PTU in and give her the car figuring with limited use it should last a few years with only 80K miles on it. So my buddy and I put the Edge up on jackstands and replaced the PTU last weekend. This can be done on the ground but it would be far easier on a lift. I'm going to post the procedure on a new thread. With the new PTU and a new battery, it's running again and my sister loves it (she should, Limited with every option including the NAV). Thanks for all the help and advice guys. John
  24. That information is correct. I'm surprised Dorman doesn't make them. For a temporary fix, realign the tone ring on the axle so that it runs directly under the sensor. Once it's perfectly aligned, run a bead of fresh cyanoacrylate around the ring where it contacts the axle. The surface tension will pull the glue into the gap and lock it tight. This will buy you at least a year until the tone ring cracks somewhere else. In any case, it will get you going until the shaft needs to be replaced. John
  25. JohnCT

    PTU discontinued by Ford

    Before I respond further, I just want to point out that I NEVER had a problem with any problem with any design. As an engineer I've seen designs on paper that should have been bullet proof but were somewhat less successful in production. My problem with Ford is their refusal to mitigate the initial problem properly or at all. There might indeed be several revisions of the PTU, but none apparently have fixed the problem. Despite the opinion of others here, I'm convinced the big problem with the PTU is a long term coking of the fluid due to friction loss and heat gain from it's installed environment. Either source of heat by itself is manageable, but together they're a problem. But my point of contention in all this is not how to fix the problem or even that the problem exists, but company policy once the problem is discovered. Anyway, out of the many thousands of parts in any car, only a relative few feature new technology or are under unusual stresses. Alternators and generators (for example) have been made for over a hundred years, and there's no excuse for the alternator (which is comprised of dozens of individual parts that count towards the total) to be troublesome at this point, and they generally aren't. Other parts that make up the many thousands are wires, connectors, bulbs, relays, fuses, nuts, bolts, washers, seals, glass and plastic parts etc. that have been made for years and are trouble free. The PTU is a relatively new design, but has been used before in Ford products. I have owned two Escapes that use a PTU that are NOT inherently troublesome, despite the fact that they are rarely serviced, but they on the other hand are not located up against a scalding hot catalytic converter. If you are a car buyer who replaces his car when the car payments are done, then this isn't a problem for you. I'm one of those guys that might keep a car or truck for many years taking advantage of no car payments and lower insurance and lower property tax, so cars that fall apart after 80K are something that concern me. John
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