JohnCT

Do you mean *literally* into the oil pan? Coolant in the oil will strip the babbitt off the bearings and destroy the engine in a very short time. John

Sure, they're fair game.. John

Although the PTU has a fairly severe angle on the ring and pinion, it's otherwise just a gear box with no clutches. It's hard to believe that it's just friction alone (particularly since it's all roller bearing) that could cause synthetic fluid breakdown of this magnitude, which is why I believe the PTU's proximity to the cat is a huge contributing factor. It's tiny fluid capacity is another contributing factor, but still points back to unmitigated heat gain. I have no evidence, but logical speculation would suggest that Ford designed and prototyped several examples of the PTU which were run with full torque to see how the box could cope with stress and heat. I would assume the box would have to have passed these bench tests before production was ordered. My speculation is that the environment the PTU experiences as installed in these platforms was an unforeseen problem that caught Ford by surprise. I unloaded my Edge after installing a new PTU, but if I was going to keep it, the plan was to fabricate and install a heat shield and airflow diverter and monitor the temperatures before and after with a thermocouple to test the effectiveness of it. John

Or even less! If you search "Ford" "GPS" and "Pink", you get this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/mini-GPS-Active-Antenna-Fakra-SMB-Pink-H-jack-3M-Cable-for-ford-lincoln-Mercury-/281126337095?epid=668911223&hash=item41746f7a47:g:JZwAAOxyIAZRx7P8 It seems that the Chinese aftermarket has these covered, and by the number of various knock offs available and the amount of them they sell for all brands of cars, it would appear these active antennas are troublesome. John

Got it! Next time I see the car I'll pull the radio and check the ant connection and NOT waste my time with the shark fin at the back (which I was ready to pull out). My sister said today that the map is actually updating and is closer to home, but still has the "no gps" indicator. Hopefully, it's a marginal connection or an antenna issue at worst. When I get it sorted out I'll post the solution. John

We know how many Ford made, but do we really know how many fail? When the Jeep dealer asked about our trade, I told him it was an Edge and had a problem. *He* asked if it was the PTU. Seems they had a bunch of Explorers and Flex' they took on trade that they had to replace them in. I laughed, told him yes, and I had the new PTU in a box in the back and he still didn't want it despite it being a loaded Limited pearl white with vista roof and nav. The word is out. When I brought one of my Escapes in for a trans rebuild a couple of years ago, I asked the owner (independent shop) how the Edge trans were, and he told me the PTUs were far more trouble. It was then that I suspected the noise and vibration I was hearing was not the rear wheel bearing. Maybe. I don't pretend to know for sure, but there's definitely a chicken or the egg thing going on. Somebody here who is reported to be "in the know" said the problem could be a one time overheat of the PTU fluid, so regular maintenance would not prevent this (I had suggested a long term coking of the fluid). It could very well be a seal failure leading to loss of fluid leading to overheating of the remaining fluid due to less of it and more friction with less lubrication. The other possibility is that the box just gets too damned hot causing the seal to fail from the scorching heat, or failing due to loss of lubrication by the scorched fluid. Again, chicken or the egg. The other thing that bothers me is that the PTU is mostly free wheeling; the majority of engine torque is transferred to the front wheels through the intermediate shaft, not the PTU. Also, there are no clutches in the PTU. Is it really possible that this box generates that much heat without handling that much torque just from friction losses? Perhaps. Again, I'm not a mechanical engineer. Back when I planned to keep the Edge, I was going to mount a thermocouple on the far side off the PTU (away from the cat) and measure the temperature of the PTU during stop and go, highway driving, and pulling long hills (which we live among around here). If the PTU showed steady temperatures well within the capability of the lube, it would make sense that a leak might be the trigger. But if the PTU showed wildly differing temps, then my plan was to fabricate a heat shield and air deflector to keep the cat's heat off the PTU and redirect airflow under the car over the PTU. I took a far easier path and gave the car to my sister. Other than the Nav acting up right now, she absolutely loves this car. John

Thanks sir. Yes, I had tried that yesterday and first had zero satellites, later I tried it and it said 2 or 3, I can't remember which, but the car was outside with no tree cover whatsoever, and it was clear day as well. Open shot to the sky. The Sat antenna is the bump on the top of the air deflector on the rear hatch, yes? I've read other references that mention the antenna being behind the radio under the dash pad, but I'm pretty sure it's out back. Next time I see the car I'll pull the antenna out and check the connections, clean them and try adding some dielectric grease to it/them. Strange that when Googling the "no gps" symbol, everyone who posted mentioned this happened after a dead battery. Odd. John

When checking the radio today, I found it mostly functional. What doesn't work is the Nav. There's a box with a NO GPS indicator in the upper left hand corner. It thinks the car is some 20 miles away from where it actually is, and won't change as the car is driven. It also won't allow the time to be set (the buttons are greyed out). I tried pulling the four fuses for half an hour, and no joy. I disconnected the battery for 10 minutes and I remain without any joy. I tried a Master Reset (no help there) and a restore default that would supposedly sync something to the nav or gps (can't remember) and it's still unaware of where it is. Any ideas? GPS antenna perhaps? John

Came with a 5/60 power train. Under mileage but over time... John

I was thinking about it, but it took longer than I expected to get the old one out that I just kept going and installed the new one without drilling it. I was so over being underneath that car! Besides, I suspect the PTUs only fail under severe duty - like driving up hills or doing 65 for several hours. My sister will use it for grocery shopping and visiting mom. She won't put 15K miles on that car in the 10 years she probably has left driving and I doubt it will ever be driven past 45 MPH again or even driven in the snow. John

This is the list I found. So there are four fuses radio related that I can see; 3, 13, 28, and 39 plus #38 which is the subwoofer (unlikely to cause system control issues). When I stop by to see the car tomorrow I'll pull those fuses out while having coffee. Thanks for the info, I'll report back. John #3 Sync #13 Sat Radio #28 Radio #38 Subwoofer/Amp #39 Radio

Here are some pics of the inside of the PTU after the gears were run through a parts washer. Enjoy. The damage is quite extensive, and the chunks of gears breaking off explain the loud banging and severe jolt in the car as this started coming apart. Considering that there's no shear pin in the torque path, I'm fortunate that the PTU didn't destroy the transmission. Acceptable at 50K miles? You tell me...

History: this 2009 Edge sat for about 8 months with a junk PTU, so the battery naturally went dead sometime during the winter. Before pushing it to the end of the driveway to ferment, everything except the PTU worked normally, including the radio/nav which my wife used daily. Last week I finally replaced the PTU, bought a new battery, gave it a 50 miles shakedown cruise where everything worked as it should and gave the car to my sister who needed one. Today she called me to tell me the radio and nav are acting up. Yesterday, none of the controls on the radio proper worked, but she was able to affect a radio station and volume change by using the controls on the steering wheel. Today the radio controls on the unit itself are again working but the nav unit is giving incorrect information, directions, and not updating position. I'm stopping by tomorrow to see what's going on but does it seem a battery disconnect procedure might help this, or is there a firmware update procedure that might help? Any insight greatly appreciated. John

I'm going to see if I can post them here. Right now I'm trying to figure out how to get pictures off this stupid LG Nexus 5 phone. None of the online procedures match my phone's menus. One way or the other I'll get them up and/or emailed. John Edit: here's a link to the pics. http://imgur.com/a/ylvKS

One of the confusing things about replacing the PTU was whether the intermediate shaft seal was also required when replacing the PTU as the procedure for installing a new PTU says to replace it anytime the PTU is removed. Here's the conclusion; if you buy a new PTU from Ford, it comes with the intermediate shaft seal pre-installed. The Edge, Explorer, Flex, and Taurus are front wheel drive based platforms with transverse engines. The left side of the automatic feeds the left wheel directly with the typical axle arrangement you'd find on any FWD car, and this is the same for the FWD or AWD versions. In the case of AWD, the PTU/transfer case is bolted to the transmission right over the output where the intermediate shaft would normally be. The intermediate shaft goes straight through the PTU and into the transaxle. There are two splines on the intermediate shaft: the first spline connects the shaft to the transmission, the second spline connects the shaft to the PTU. So the intermediate shaft transfers power from the transmission to both the PTU and the right side axle. If the intermediate shaft is ever removed, the seal in the PTU must be changed if the PTU is not replaced. Again, the new PTU comes with the shaft seal installed, so you don't need to buy the intermediate shaft seal... or do you? Here's where it gets weird: Ford has a "tool" which is a 0.50 cent plastic slip guide and a grab handle which is first inserted into the shaft seal before the intermediate shaft is installed. The intermediate shaft slides into the tool and into the PTU and the seal is protected from damage from the spline by the plastic tool. Once the shaft is most the way in, the tool is pulled out. The only way to obtain this tool is by buying the intermediate shaft seal (the one the new PTU has preinstalled). So if you buy the PTU, you must also buy *another* intermediate shaft seal just to obtain the tool. Once the PTU is installed, you'll have the tool (you can use it more than once IMO) and an extra shaft seal. I'm not sure if was dumb of Ford not to include the protective tool with the new PTU or if they figure you'll need another shaft seal in 25K miles anyway. As for the job, it took me almost 10 hours on jack stands. With a lift it should be much less. The complete exhaust must come out first. Then the right side axle. Disconnect the drive shaft u joint from the output of the PTU and wire off to one side. The cat must be removed, and I had to drop the back of the subframe to allow enough clearance to remove the cat and PTU. I wasted too much time trying not to drop it. It only takes a few minutes to drop the subframe so my advice is to do it that way. Leave the front bolts in the sub and remove the rest. I used a floor jack to help support the sub in order to loosen and then reinstall the subframe. There is a mounting bracket on the cat that's in the way and would be easy to remove to provide more exit clearance except the bolts go through the top side where they are inaccessible. If the catch nuts were welded on the top side, it would be two minutes to remove the bolts from the bottom. Giving this some more thought, you can probably bend the bracket to get the cat out, then swap the catch nuts to the other side (tack weld) and install the bracket after the cat is remounted. The intermediate shaft support bracket has 5 bolts, two of which are very difficult to get to. I did a post-mortem on the old PTU apart to see what happened, and *every* gear had almost every tooth knackered or chipped. Chunks were missing, yet no large pieces were found, mostly powdered iron. There was no oil, just sludge. Looked like moly grease inside. I put the gears through a parts cleaner to get a better look, and they are absolutely blasted. I can email pictures to anyone who wants to see them. Strangely, none of the bearings seemed damaged. This looks like a straight gear set failure. My original plan was to drill and tap the new PTU for routine servicing, but I've since replaced the car with a new Jeep and gave the Edge to my sister. My wife just didn't trust it. I had gone away from Ford in the 90s but took a chance on this car as a "probationary' Ford. If it got through 150K miles without a major systems failure, I'd buy another. Good chance it would have been the MKX. But I'm done. The 66 Mustang in the garage is the last Ford I'll own, but I digress. If anyone has any questions about replacing the PTU give me a shout and I'll help you the best I can. The procedure for the Explorer, Flex, MKX, and Taurus should be almost identical. John

Update: Right before Thanksgiving, the PTU all but blew up. It was jerking badly and sounded like someone shooting ball bearings at the bottom of the car when it moved. I had previously purchased the PTU, but didn't have the time to change it before Christmas, so my wife picked out a new 2017 Grand Cherokee Limited 4X4. I was going to trade the Edge but neither of the two Jeep dealers wanted it with a bad PTU even though I was going to include the part in the trade. They suggested I put it on Craigslist and get what I could for it. I pushed it to the end of the driveway and there it's sat for the last 10 months. Fast forward many months later and my sister suddenly needed a car, so I thought that since she's older and puts few miles on the car, I would put the PTU in and give her the car figuring with limited use it should last a few years with only 80K miles on it. So my buddy and I put the Edge up on jackstands and replaced the PTU last weekend. This can be done on the ground but it would be far easier on a lift. I'm going to post the procedure on a new thread. With the new PTU and a new battery, it's running again and my sister loves it (she should, Limited with every option including the NAV). Thanks for all the help and advice guys. John

That information is correct. I'm surprised Dorman doesn't make them. For a temporary fix, realign the tone ring on the axle so that it runs directly under the sensor. Once it's perfectly aligned, run a bead of fresh cyanoacrylate around the ring where it contacts the axle. The surface tension will pull the glue into the gap and lock it tight. This will buy you at least a year until the tone ring cracks somewhere else. In any case, it will get you going until the shaft needs to be replaced. John

Before I respond further, I just want to point out that I NEVER had a problem with any problem with any design. As an engineer I've seen designs on paper that should have been bullet proof but were somewhat less successful in production. My problem with Ford is their refusal to mitigate the initial problem properly or at all. There might indeed be several revisions of the PTU, but none apparently have fixed the problem. Despite the opinion of others here, I'm convinced the big problem with the PTU is a long term coking of the fluid due to friction loss and heat gain from it's installed environment. Either source of heat by itself is manageable, but together they're a problem. But my point of contention in all this is not how to fix the problem or even that the problem exists, but company policy once the problem is discovered. Anyway, out of the many thousands of parts in any car, only a relative few feature new technology or are under unusual stresses. Alternators and generators (for example) have been made for over a hundred years, and there's no excuse for the alternator (which is comprised of dozens of individual parts that count towards the total) to be troublesome at this point, and they generally aren't. Other parts that make up the many thousands are wires, connectors, bulbs, relays, fuses, nuts, bolts, washers, seals, glass and plastic parts etc. that have been made for years and are trouble free. The PTU is a relatively new design, but has been used before in Ford products. I have owned two Escapes that use a PTU that are NOT inherently troublesome, despite the fact that they are rarely serviced, but they on the other hand are not located up against a scalding hot catalytic converter. If you are a car buyer who replaces his car when the car payments are done, then this isn't a problem for you. I'm one of those guys that might keep a car or truck for many years taking advantage of no car payments and lower insurance and lower property tax, so cars that fall apart after 80K are something that concern me. John

I think I can safely make that comparison. I put transmissions in an 04 and 05 Escape (the famous CD4E) and that's fairly recent. The CD4E went in production in 1994(!) with a valve body design problem that caused runaway line pressure which collapsed the forward drum. Both my Escapes suffered from catastrophic drum failure. Do you think it was ever resolved? It was, but not by Ford. This design error was never addressed in the 14(!) years the transmission was produced. I had both Escape transmissions rebuilt locally and I purchased the Transgo CD4E Jr. kit which fixes the problem ($45 retail) and had the rebuilder install the kits. You need more recent? The Edge's PTU went in production in 2007, and according to my source at a Ford dealer (cousin), the PTUs were puking way back in 2007. Ford again didn't fix the problem by 2009 (when I got suckered in) and judging by the number of people with the same problem as late as 2014 (last year for first gen Edge). That's hardly ancient history. In the old days, the standard advice was not to buy any first year design because the bugs needed to be ironed out. My advice to Ford buyers is to indeed wait that first year, but if the first year has problems, look elsewhere because every year after that will continue to be trouble until the next vehicle redesign. If the car seems trouble free (particularly those with 80K miles or so), it's probably a safe bet. But I admit my culpability in Ford's unchanging policy simply by enabling them through continued purchases from Ford. I've rectified that as I just picked up a Jeep Compass last month to replace one of the Escapes (business vehicles) and, come spring, I'll unload the wife's Edge for a Caddy XT5 or a Grand Cherokee Overland. John

From my personal experience as a long time Ford buyer, it's my opinion that it's Ford's company policy not to fix screw ups until the next generation vehicle is designed. Look at how many years the 3.8V6 Essex ran bad head gaskets (known from warranty failures the first year), or how many years the AXOD or CD4E transmissions were produced with known defects. All of these problems were easily resolved in the aftermarket soon after these cars first went into production, but Ford did not implement any of these improvements as long as the vehicles or systems were in produced. This is the major reason Ford cars have such crappy resale value. Buying a used Ford is buying a major systems time bomb in too many cases. Other than my 1966 Mustang 2+2, this Edge is my last Ford. They've just burned me too many times. If you buy new cars every 3 to 5 years and purchase an extended warranty, then they'll do just fine for you (apart from the resale value). John

My experience with Escapes is limited to two 3.0V6s (04 and 05), both of which feature the CD4E, and both of which crapped out due to a damaged drum. Ford knew about the valve body problem that causes the failure way back in 1992 but continued to make this problem child available to us suckers until they went out of production over a dozen years later. The Duratec is a fine motor and pretty much trouble free as long as only Motorcraft plugs and coils are used. My original plan was to strap myself under the Escape while my son drove up a long hill at high speed, but I don't trust that boy not to go off roading with me under it. So... the plan is to simply go for a ride and hit Southington Mountain for a strong charge up the hill. I'll get out (after having stopped the truck) and simply take a reading with my Raytek IR thermometer. I'll also take a temp of the wife's Edge although that will be harder to get since it's a bit more buried. John

Not that it matters, but I would have preferred the short life of the PTU was due to an overlooked factor (airflow, prox to cat, etc.) than some fundamental design flaw. Ford has been building these types of PTUs in earlier vehicles and didn't have a problem with them. To say that it's not an external factor in the Edge version means that Ford not only designed a bad mechanical device, but did NOT life test them. Again, it doesn't matter, but I would have felt better about this if Ford built a hundred of these in a pilot run and ran the snot out of them on a load fixture and found them adequate. But if external heat from the Edge exhaust is not causing the oil coking, then either Ford didn't run the pilot production on a test fixture or did and decided to roll the dice. If you look at Ford's history, the later makes sense. Ford decided to put alum heads on the previously bullet proof Essex V6 and found out that they were spitting out their head gaskets in less than 60K miles. Instead of fixing either the head design or even upgrading the gasket set, they continued to build the engine as is until the end of production. Aftermarket gaskets from FelPro fixed the problem. The CD4E automatic went into production in 1992 with a valve body design problem that would cause a line pressure runaway that would destroy the forward drum. They never fixed the design letting the customers to shoulder the cost of a new trans. The aftermarket fixed this problem as well. I had to rebuild two CD4Es for this problem, and put in a Transgo CD4E Jr kit to address the valve body problem. Another company (Sonnex?)makes a better fix that's more expensive and requires special tools. I have two AWD Escapes for my business that use a Haldex type PTU similar to the Edge. I'll run the heck out of mine and take a temperature of it and report back. I'd be stunned if it gets much past 200F. BTW, the PTUs in Escapes are not known to be problematic. John

You make some good points, but we don't know exactly what happens in the PTU without being privy to Ford's post-mortem. As for my wife's car, we NEVER took it into the mountains or went off roading or pulled a trailer or even did a long stretch over 80. Most of it's miles are around town and some highway trips at 65 mph. It died at 65K but had been making noise for the last 15K at least (I thought it was a rear wheel bearing singing). But, since the oil is clearly coking, some sort of catastrophic overheating is happening. I can't believe it's just friction losses that cause heat high enough to coke synthetic fluid whose flash point is at least 350F. If the flash point is indeed 350 (say), does this mean that if the oil stays below 325 it will be fine forever? I have a feeling that the heat damage to the oil is cumulative, not from a specific binary incident failure, although I'm certainly willing to listen to someone with more understanding of oil behavior with regard to heat as my comments are admittedly pure speculation. Still, I think the primary reason the oil is dying is the PTU getting to about 300F and slowly cooking the oil due to it's proximity to the catalytic converter, which is why routine maintenance will help IMO. However, I also believe you're correct in that a single incident (as your examples mention) where the PTU gets over the flash point temp of the oil can undo a recent maintenance. If I were going to keep the Edge, I would mitigate the heat gain from the cat as much as possible as I believe this is a more likely source of the heat than friction losses are. A heat shield would seem not only prudent but necessary. I'm installing the new PTU as is but if I planned to keep the car I would drill and tap it for a drain plug. I'll let the next poor sucker deal with it; at least it will have a new PTU when I off it. John

The oil in my PTU was found to be: 1) low 2) burned into a black paste. I'm an EE, not a ME, but I know that heat destroys things mechanical just as it does things electrical. I know enough that the only way synthetic oil will sludge is because of heat, and lots of it. I also know that sludged oil cannot protect bearings anywhere near as well as non sludged oil can. I can't speak to the fellow in your example who lost his PTU at 65K miles despite rigorous maintenance, only to say that sometimes things do fail for isolated reasons. I've also read of others who had the beginnings of PTU failure (noise mostly) and serviced the PTU several times and forestalled failure of the PTU apparently. Also, most seals will fail because of excessive heat which will lead to leakage of the precious little fluid it contains, leading to more heat. I don't know what's different in the "G" version of the PTU, but maybe it features redesigned seals that are teflon or some other synthetic material that can take heat better. Keeping the oil inside is half the battle. I'm sure that Ford has done several engineering analysis of the failed PTUs and whatever they've found was implemented in the redesigned Edge/Ex/ Flex. Since they've added a drain to the redesigned PTUs, it seems that keeping fresh fluid in the PTU is a priority. Since another objective would be to keep the fluid from coking into sludge, I would be surprised if the cat wasn't relocated in the redesign or a heat shield installed between the cat and the PTU. Considering the flash point of the synthetic fluid is well over 350 degrees, imagine how hot the PTU gets in service! I think the PTU as is is fairly well designed except for it's oil capacity, but also think that if it wasn't located so close to the cat, it would survive just fine even with but half a quart of fluid. If I planned to keep our Edge I would explore ways to keep the new PTU alive, but it's going in the spring. Looking at a Caddy XT5 and one of my golfing buddies just picked up a new Audi Q5 which is a real nice car. I would have picked up the Lincoln MKX (particularly since I'm an X plan buyer) but Ford has screwed me too many times over the years. John

It's my understanding that both are correct; that is the 12 OZ was the original fill specification for 2007 (first year). Once the PTUs started croaking in the first months of production way back in 2007, Ford changed it to filling to the bottom of the fill plug, which would be 18 OZs more or less, theory being more oil would help cooling. [speculation] Ford made the decision to not make simple upgrades (drain plug - cat heat shield) to prevent the PTUs from failing after 30K miles or so, but to let subsequent buyers foot the bill. They seem to think this is a better plan than fixing their mistake. [/speculation] For those of you who intend to keep your Edge/Explorer/Flex/Mazda I'd put in the best aftermarket oil I can find and fill it to the bottom of the fill plug. For routine service, pump out as much as you can and add back all it will take. Do this at every oil change. [editorial] If Ford decided the best thing for them would to be to keep the design error in production until the next generation, the very LEAST they could have done is to inform us to allow us to mitigate the damages a bit. Perhaps a note in the owner's manual starting in 2008 such as this: Greetings from Ford. It has come to our attention that we made a design boo-boo with regards to the Power Transfer Unit (PTU) in your new Ford Edge AWD vehicle. Whereas we designed the PTU to last the life of the vehicle, it turns out that in real life, it's a bit shorter than that (expect 30K to 60K miles). So instead of us addressing the problem in 2008 and up Ford Edge vehicles, we have decided to leave well enough (for us) alone and let you deal with it. So our recommendation is to drain and refill the "filled for life" fluid out of the PTU at every oil change. While we concede this extra maintenance is annoying, we feel that you should be grateful we are giving you a plan to perhaps prevent a $2500 bill. Don't forget to avail yourselves to our wonderful Ford themed merchandise such as watches and hoodies at Ford.com Thanks for your understanding. The Ford Team [/editorial] If I had at least known that the PTU would die in my wife's car at 65K miles, I would have serviced it religiously since the car was new and avoided this huge expense. It's bad enough Ford never implemented a redesign, but to not even tell us that doing maintenance on the PTU would likely prevent an expensive repair is obscene. It's too late for me but any of you who have a PTU that's working properly MUST get it serviced.