2008 ford edge trans problems

[02sd]

when the truck warms up and sitting at a light, When the light goes green and you try to give the edge some gas it slams into a gear, feeling like we have just been rear-ended! making some odd noise also

The ford trans tech said if there is no light/codes there is no problem

But obviously there is a problem

and Ideas what it is? to help the ford techs out?

[02sd]

I just took it for another ride, up a hill and stoped it feels like its maybe in reverse and fwd. as it will not roll back or go forward until you rev the engine to about 2000 rpm and it gives a hard bang and goes into your fwd gear again.

A quick stop does not do this it will act normal.

[wwest]

I just took it for another ride, up a hill and stoped it feels like its maybe in reverse and fwd. as it will not roll back or go forward until you rev the engine to about 2000 rpm and it gives a hard bang and goes into your fwd gear again.

A quick stop does not do this it will act normal.

 

It sounds as if you're describing the new Hill-Start "feature" being incorporated into many new vehicles. The control system detects that the vehicle "wants" to roll forward or backward and automatically engages the brakes lightly. Now that you want to go forward it takes a "moment" to disengage this feature.

 

With the advent, and wide use, of STRONG torque converter lockup clutches the need for engine idle, or low RPM torque converter coupling coefficient has been significantly reduced. That has resulted in less "natural" hill-holding ability, thereby the need for this new "feature".

 

Some vehicles only activate the hill-start feature if an unusual level of braking is applied.

Edited November 27, 2009 by wwest

[ThinLine]

The edge does not have "hill assist".

[wwest]

The edge does not have "hill assist".

 

"Hill-Start" is a feature which will apply the brakes while stopped on a grade to make it easier for the driver to initially start moving uphill.

 

"Hill-Assist" is a feature which automatically uses the brakes to keep downhill forward motion to a minimum.

[druck52]

"Hill-Start" is a feature which will apply the brakes while stopped on a grade to make it easier for the driver to initially start moving uphill.

 

"Hill-Assist" is a feature which automatically uses the brakes to keep downhill forward motion to a minimum.

 

 

How bout this then. The edge does not have Hill-Start.

[ThinLine]

Thanks Druck......."hill assit" and "hill start" must be two different things ! :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:

[druck52]

Thanks Druck......."hill assit" and "hill start" must be two different things ! :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:

 

 

They are I guess. I have never heard of "hill stat". Maybe some manufacturs use it, but Ford does not. Not on any of its vehicles. Don't listen to what WWEST as most of it is flat out wrong.

[ThinLine]

Yeah, I really dont understand any of what West is posting. These features do not apply to the Edge in any way, shape or form. PLease give it a rest West.

[wwest]

They are I guess. I have never heard of "hill stat". Maybe some manufacturs use it, but Ford does not. Not on any of its vehicles. Don't listen to what WWEST as most of it is flat out wrong.

 

Ford seems to be hiding a lot of sins under the AdvanceTrac label/"cover". I wouldn't be too sure that "hill-start" isn't one of these absent being able to read a fairly definitive theory of operation of overall AdvanceTrac functionality.

 

With the development and wider (beyond OD) use of a much more robust torque converter lockup clutch the need for a highly efficient, TIGHTLY coupling, torque converter has waned, seriously waned. So nowadays absent Hill-Assist most automatics would roll if stopped on an incline. Step on the brakes to stop the "roll" and hill assist engages automatically, holding the brakes on for you. That results in a slight DBW "enforced" throttle delay once you apply pressure to the gas pedal.

 

Seattlelites are especially appreciative of this "feature".

Edited November 29, 2009 by wwest

[wwest]

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2009/09...state-fair.html

 

4th paragraph.

 

Then about 2/3's down the page..

 

Addition of Trailer Sway Control. ("to long-standing AdvanceTrac features".)

Edited November 29, 2009 by wwest

[druck52]

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2009/09...state-fair.html

 

4th paragraph.

 

Then about 2/3's down the page..

 

Addition of Trailer Sway Control. ("to long-standing AdvanceTrac features".)

 

and that has what to do with anything.

 

As for the hill start, do a search on here and you will see that the edge does roll back on hills. So there goes your theory.

[wwest]

and that has what to do with anything.

 

As for the hill start, do a search on here and you will see that the edge does roll back on hills. So there goes your theory.

 

 

"...does roll back..."

 

Before stability control was included or after....??

 

Besides which a bit of "roll" is required to "arm" hill-start and then brake application "sets" hill-start.

[EdgeNut]

Before stability control was included or after....??

 

Besides which a bit of "roll" is required to "arm" hill-start and then brake application "sets" hill-start.

 

Wrong again... Hill assist systems do not require the vehicle to roll back to engage, as they typically hold some level of driver braking to allow a smooth transition to the gas pedal without rolling back. As the gas pedal is depressed, brake pressure is ramped out.

 

And for what it's worth, stability control has always been standard on the Edge...

[wwest]

Wrong again... Hill assist systems do not require the vehicle to roll back to engage, as they typically hold some level of driver braking to allow a smooth transition to the gas pedal without rolling back. As the gas pedal is depressed, brake pressure is ramped out.

 

And for what it's worth, stability control has always been standard on the Edge...

 

 

"....smooth transition...."

 

Hmmmm.....Ford has found a way, some way, to smoothly release the TC braking solenoid...??

 

Electronic brake application and/or release is anything but smooth. Note the feel of ABS, TC, or stability control braking application/release.

 

If vehicle "roll" is not a requirement for arming Hill-Start then why doesn't it engage each and every time the brakes are applied while stopped.

[EdgeNut]

"....smooth transition...."

 

Hmmmm.....Ford has found a way, some way, to smoothly release the TC braking solenoid...??

 

Electronic brake application and/or release is anything but smooth. Note the feel of ABS, TC, or stability control braking application/release.

 

If vehicle "roll" is not a requirement for arming Hill-Start then why doesn't it engage each and every time the brakes are applied while stopped.

 

Yes, Ford and every other manufacturer/supplier that has stability control has found a way to smoothly control that valve between 100 and 150 times per second. That's not news...

 

... and the Edge doesn't have any electronic brake application, it's only hydraulic. Some other vehicles have an electric park brake, which is another way hill assist can be implemented, and implemented smoothly I might add.

 

... and hill assist doesn't engage every time you hit the brakes and come to a stop because the sensors used by the stability control system can tell if you're on a hill, whether facing upwards or downwards. Some hill assist systems will even help you if you're pointed down hill, with the transmission in reverse.

 

Have you ever actually driven a vehicle with hill assist? I ask because these systems are nearly transparent, and quite nicely integrated.

[wwest]

Yes, Ford and every other manufacturer/supplier that has stability control has found a way to smoothly control that valve between 100 and 150 times per second. That's not news...

 

Sorry, no.

 

The ABS, TC and Stability control solenoids are electronically ECU controlled, electrically energized using a BANG-BANG, Fully ON or Fully OFF, servo drive technique. The brake fluid on or off pressure is "moderated", modulated via the PWM action of the solenoid actuator. The 100-150 CPS vibratory nature of the feel of the brake pedal with ABS activating should give one an idea of how non-smooth this functionality really is.

 

You, the driver, might be able to apply the brakes in a nice "linear", smooth, way, but as yet these various "features" cannot.

 

... and the Edge doesn't have any electronic brake application, it's only hydraulic.

 

The AdvanceTrac ECU (Electronic Control Unit) can energize the Brake "apply" side of the brake control manifold's solenoid for TC, porting hydraulic pressure to any wheel or wheels. For ABS the pressure release solenoid within the manifold is use. Stability control might use either/or depending on the situation at hand.

 

Some other vehicles have an electric park brake, which is another way hill assist can be implemented, and implemented smoothly I might add.

 

... and hill assist doesn't engage every time you hit the brakes and come to a stop because the sensors used by the stability control system can tell if you're on a hill,

 

The primary sensors added for stability control was a lateral accelerometer and a stearing wheel rotational position sensor. These are used in conjunction with pre-existing sensors used to support ABS & TC, the wheel speed sensors for instance.

 

whether facing upwards or downwards. Some hill assist systems will even help you if you're pointed down hill, with the transmission in reverse.

 

Sorry, but the way I read the documentation (mostly Toyota but others as well) for "hill-Start" the ABS wheel sensors are used to detect roll and since they are not directional the "hill-Start" might engage regardless of "tilt". Some systems appear to also require an unusually high level of brake application in order to activate this feature, but still must be armed via roll.

 

Have you ever actually driven a vehicle with hill assist? I ask because these systems are nearly transparent, and quite nicely integrated.

 

No, I haven't, only read about, all over the internet, the problems owners are having when it engages and then disengages so abruptly as engine RPM rises to the level that the new lower efficiency torque converters provide enough coupling to overcome gravity.

Edited December 1, 2009 by wwest

[ThinLine]

Holy Moly !

[EdgeNut]

Yes, Ford and every other manufacturer/supplier that has stability control has found a way to smoothly control that valve between 100 and 150 times per second. That's not news...

 

Sorry, no.

 

The ABS, TC and Stability control solenoids are electronically ECU controlled, electrically energized using a BANG-BANG, Fully ON or Fully OFF, servo drive technique. The brake fluid on or off pressure is "moderated", modulated via the PWM action of the solenoid actuator. The 100-150 CPS vibratory nature of the feel of the brake pedal with ABS activating should give one an idea of how non-smooth this functionality really is.

 

You, the driver, might be able to apply the brakes in a nice "linear", smooth, way, but as yet these various "features" cannot.

 

... and the Edge doesn't have any electronic brake application, it's only hydraulic.

 

The AdvanceTrac ECU (Electronic Control Unit) can energize the Brake "apply" side of the brake control manifold's solenoid for TC, porting hydraulic pressure to any wheel or wheels. For ABS the pressure release solenoid within the manifold is use. Stability control might use either/or depending on the situation at hand.

 

Some other vehicles have an electric park brake, which is another way hill assist can be implemented, and implemented smoothly I might add.

 

... and hill assist doesn't engage every time you hit the brakes and come to a stop because the sensors used by the stability control system can tell if you're on a hill,

 

The primary sensors added for stability control was a lateral accelerometer and a stearing wheel rotational position sensor. These are used in conjunction with pre-existing sensors used to support ABS & TC, the wheel speed sensors for instance.

 

whether facing upwards or downwards. Some hill assist systems will even help you if you're pointed down hill, with the transmission in reverse.

 

Sorry, but the way I read the documentation (mostly Toyota but others as well) for "hill-Start" the ABS wheel sensors are used to detect roll and since they are not directional the "hill-Start" might engage regardless of "tilt". Some systems appear to also require an unusually high level of brake application in order to activate this feature, but still must be armed via roll.

 

Have you ever actually driven a vehicle with hill assist? I ask because these systems are nearly transparent, and quite nicely integrated.

 

No, I haven't, only read about, all over the internet, the problems owners are having when it engages and then disengages so abruptly as engine RPM rises to the level that the new lower efficiency torque converters provide enough coupling to overcome gravity.

 

 

I suggest you keep studying...

 

If you think you can feel something at 100-150Hz as 'abrupt', you're fooling yourself - these systems can easily bleed off brake pressure slowly, whether that pressure was delivered by the driver's foot, or the stability control pump. I for one have felt how Toyota implements their stability control, and think you may have a skewed perception. Toyota is by no means the leader in this department, and you'll be reminded of that by the constant chime you get whenever stability control kicks in and practically shuts the car down.

 

... and you left out the fact that all stability control systems include a yaw rate sensor and longitudinal accelerometer (us lucky Ford-types get a roll sensor as well). The longitudinal accelerometer is the one that can tell if you're stopped facing up or down a hill.

 

Maybe Toyotas aren't all they're cracked up to be? I've experienced the hill assist function in the Mini Cooper with a manual transmission, and it's brilliant. Go drive one of those before you suggest that automakers can't deliver a smooth system. Maybe the lack of refinement is specific to Toyota...

[wwest]

I suggest you keep studying...

 

If you think you can feel something at 100-150Hz as 'abrupt', you're fooling yourself

 

No, you cannot "feel" the 100-150hz, at least not as an ABRUPT "feeling". But at the ONSET of ABS or TC braking and TC braking release, there is ALWAYS a very noteable ABRUPTNESS involved.

 

- these systems can easily bleed off brake pressure slowly,

 

No, sorry, but the solenoid valve goes instantly from fully OPEN to fully CLOSED once TC ceases operation.

 

whether that pressure was delivered by the driver's foot, or the stability control pump. I for one have felt how Toyota implements their stability control, and think you may have a skewed perception. Toyota is by no means the leader in this department, and you'll be reminded of that by the constant chime you get whenever stability control kicks in and practically shuts the car down.

 

Sorry, again, it's the TC that shuts the car, engine, down. Stability control actiivation is a short, quickly passing occurance and even if the engine were to be dethrottle it would only be for a few hundred milliseconds.

 

... and you left out the fact that all stability control systems include a yaw rate sensor and longitudinal accelerometer (us lucky Ford-types get a roll sensor as well). The longitudinal accelerometer is the one that can tell if you're stopped facing up or down a hill.

 

In this case a lateral accelerometer IS a yaw sensor. Not all stability control systems have a longitudinal accelerometer and even those that do still rely on the wheel speed sensors for low speed inputs.

 

Maybe Toyotas aren't all they're cracked up to be? I've experienced the hill assist function in the Mini Cooper with a manual transmission, and it's brilliant. Go drive one of those before you suggest that automakers can't deliver a smooth system. Maybe the lack of refinement is specific to Toyota...

 

Vehicles with manual transmissions have had "hill-start" (Hill-holding) capability for as long as I can remember.

[EdgeNut]

I suggest you keep studying...

 

If you think you can feel something at 100-150Hz as 'abrupt', you're fooling yourself

 

No, you cannot "feel" the 100-150hz, at least not as an ABRUPT "feeling". But at the ONSET of ABS or TC braking and TC braking release, there is ALWAYS a very noteable ABRUPTNESS involved.

 

 

- these systems can easily bleed off brake pressure slowly,

 

No, sorry, but the solenoid valve goes instantly from fully OPEN to fully CLOSED once TC ceases operation.

 

whether that pressure was delivered by the driver's foot, or the stability control pump. I for one have felt how Toyota implements their stability control, and think you may have a skewed perception. Toyota is by no means the leader in this department, and you'll be reminded of that by the constant chime you get whenever stability control kicks in and practically shuts the car down.

 

Sorry, again, it's the TC that shuts the car, engine, down. Stability control actiivation is a short, quickly passing occurance and even if the engine were to be dethrottle it would only be for a few hundred milliseconds.

 

... and you left out the fact that all stability control systems include a yaw rate sensor and longitudinal accelerometer (us lucky Ford-types get a roll sensor as well). The longitudinal accelerometer is the one that can tell if you're stopped facing up or down a hill.

 

In this case a lateral accelerometer IS a yaw sensor. Not all stability control systems have a longitudinal accelerometer and even those that do still rely on the wheel speed sensors for low speed inputs.

 

Maybe Toyotas aren't all they're cracked up to be? I've experienced the hill assist function in the Mini Cooper with a manual transmission, and it's brilliant. Go drive one of those before you suggest that automakers can't deliver a smooth system. Maybe the lack of refinement is specific to Toyota...

 

Vehicles with manual transmissions have had "hill-start" (Hill-holding) capability for as long as I can remember

 

Remember that PWM thing you so astutely brought up? That is how brake pressure can be released smoothly. The valves in these systems are opened and closed at high frequency to gently release pressure. Though I would agree that Toyota doesn't do this very well...

 

... and, a lateral accelerometer and a yaw rate sensor are completely different things - one measures a linear quantity, the other measures a rotational quantity. There's no confusing those two.

 

And yes, wheel speed sensors are effective at measuring motion. However, the other vehicle sensors can identify if a vehicle is on a hill while stopped, because the dominant external force is gravity, which will show up on the longitudinal accelerometer when the vehicle is pointed uphill or downhill. That's how the systems work without needing the vehicle to roll back...

 

Here's some light reading about stability control from our friends at NHTSA - a good read for learning some basics about these systems, and the federal requirements for OEMs to install them: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/DOT/N..._FR_03_2007.pdf

 

Although this has been fun, I think we've wandered far enough away from the original 'trans problems' topic. On that note, happy reading, I'm out... :beerchug:

[wwest]

Remember that PWM thing you so astutely brought up? That is how brake pressure can be released smoothly. The valves in these systems are opened and closed at high frequency to gently release pressure.

 

Yes, as I already agreed, during the PWM drive signal the brake fluid pressure is "metered". But at the ONSET, you are going from NO BRAKE PRESSURE to SOME brake pressure. Conversely when the VSC/TC/ABS braking stops. It is at THOSE times that the driver feels the ABRUPTNESS of the activity.

 

Besides which I have NEVER seen any indication the the Hill-Start feature makes use of PWM braking, just SOLID/CONSTANT braking is all that is required.

 

Though I would agree that Toyota doesn't do this very well...

 

And just WHEN did Ford "discover" stability control.

 

... and, a lateral accelerometer and a yaw rate sensor are completely different things - one measures a linear quantity, the other measures a rotational quantity. There's no confusing those two.

 

And if you put a lateral accelerometer in the approximate center of a vehicle will it not indicate when/if the vehicle is beginning to experience YAW..?? In an airplane you can/might experience continuing/constant yaw, so a true yaw sensor MUST be used. In a vehicle, unless you want to go down the road sideways, yawing MUST be, will be, transient. So in a road-going vehicle a lateral accelerometer for detecting "yaw" will work just fine.

 

See page 8, paragraph 11, item © in the document you referenced.

 

And yes, wheel speed sensors are effective at measuring motion. However, the other vehicle sensors can identify if a vehicle is on a hill while stopped, because the dominant external force is gravity, which will show up on the longitudinal accelerometer when the vehicle is pointed uphill or downhill. That's how the systems work without needing the vehicle to roll back...

 

Sorry, but a longitudinally positioned accelerometer could NEVER be used to detect the rotational position around an axis, in this case a horizontal, right to left axis.....a yaw sensor maybe...

 

A longitudinally mounted accelerometer, a HIGHLY sensitive one (read EXPENSIVE), could be used to detect the slight forward or rearward movement due to gravity when (trying to be) stopped on a sloping roadbed. But then what's the need..?? The wheelspeed sensor signal is already available and QUITE sensitive.

 

Here's some light reading about stability control from our friends at NHTSA - a good read for learning some basics about these systems, and the federal requirements for OEMs to install them: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/DOT/N..._FR_03_2007.pdf

 

Although this has been fun, I think we've wandered far enough away from the original 'trans problems' topic. On that note, happy reading, I'm out... :beerchug:

 

Me too/also Robroy..UP!

Edited December 2, 2009 by wwest

[Wolfie]

when the truck warms up and sitting at a light, When the light goes green and you try to give the edge some gas it slams into a gear, feeling like we have just been rear-ended! making some odd noise also

The ford trans tech said if there is no light/codes there is no problem

But obviously there is a problem

and Ideas what it is? to help the ford techs out?

Dear 02SD, Did they ever figure out what was wrong it your car ? Please read my new post and let me know my ford mech are stumped even tho I ve told them of this site and that other people are or have had this prob! I have a 2010 with 1200 new miles and its still in the shop today post name "wolfie"