dshamer

DKS, I own a 2009 Lincoln MKX, which is just a pimped out Ford Edge. I like my MKX too, just like you like your Edge. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect 200,000 miles ON THE MOTOR AND DRIVETRAIN WITHOUT MAJOR REPAIRS. AGAIN, IF THE VEHICLE IS PROPERLY MAINTAINED . (You are reading Kirby, but you are not comprehending) Of course, there will be problems along the way with any vehicle, but there should not be MAJOR REPAIRS. (Kirby, got it yet?) Unfortunately, evidence is out there that shows that the FORD EDGE is not up to that task. Carcomplaints.com, has the 2008 EDGE as the year with the most complaints of the EDGE production years, and the number 1 complaint for the 2008 FORD EDGE, according to THEIR INFORMATION, is the transmission. I don't know how reliable that site is, but I don't have any reason to doub't that information at this time... just as I have no reason to doub't consumer reports. I say this, where there is smoke there is fire. PS I have a 1996 Toyota Tacoma 4 wheel drive with 250,000 miles. I've put a starter, an exhaust manifold, brake calipers, clutch etc. I expect repairs like that. I have a 2001 Chevy S-10 with 210,000 miles. Replaced the complete exhaust system, alternator, ac compressor, radiator. All acceptable repairs. Come on Kirby, get REAL! I DID NOT SAY I EXPECT 100% OF ALL VEHICLES TO MAKE IT TO THE 200,000 MILE MARK. THOSE ARE YOUR WORDS, NOT MINE. I DO EXPECT THE MAJORITY OF VEHICLES THAT ARE PROPERLY MAINTAINED TO REACH THAT GOAL. AND, I DO NOT EXPECT A 200,000 MILE WARRANTY. That's not what I am saying, and YOU know it. No Kirby, not unrealistic. Maybe you should raise your expectations?

Consumer report claims FORD EDGE has "much worse than average reliability" and "worse than average owner costs". "Owners ranked satisfaction lowest in its segment." So, DKS, it's not YOU that is at fault. It's your FORD EDGE.

DKS, you won't get any sympathy from these guys. They bleed FORD blue and accept the short comings of FORD products. That's their choice, but they should not expect the rest of us to have such blind devotion to an obviously flawed manufactured product. I agree with you, in this day and age, every vehicle manufactured, be it FORD, GM, TOYOTA etc. should last 200,000 miles if properly maintained without any major driveline failure.

On road AWD crossovers in the US are mostly for cold weather climates. AWD is sure footed and makes it much safer for travel during inclement weather. I live in a rural area where you could not get to my home without AWD or four wheel drive during certain times of snowy winter weather. AWD and four wheel drive is a must for me.I own an AWD MKX and a fourwheel drive Toyota truck. Toyota Tacoma is built like a tank. 250,000 miles and not one major issue. Lincoln MKX 15,000 miles and PTU has already begun to leak. I like the MKX, rides nice, very quiet, handles well...beautiful vehicle! The PTU issue and how Ford has handled the problem just pisses me off to no end.

Thank you for the info, I understand that EDGE/MKX owners in the midle east have a replcement PTU with a drain and a 100,000 mile 10 yr warranty? If, so, I don't understand why folks in the US can't buy the same unit. I know that you don't have the answer to this question, but just throwing that question out there for Ford. I'm certain they lurk. I fully understand that parts fail along with design. Ford did right by purchasers in the middle east. It's time they man up and do the same for us US buyers of their product.

Has the famous well know PTU failure leakage etc. been solved for the 2015 model year, or is it the same faulty design?

I assume none of the peroxide can get into the cabin area? Peroxide will act like bleach if you get it on any cloth seats.

Turtle wax liquid...I've tried all the latest greatest expensive BS waxes over the years. Went back to turtle wax liquid. It's as good as anything out there. Most of the fancy expensive waxes are nothing but hype. And, there is something better than any wax... FOR ULTIMATE PROTECTION, KEEP YOUR VEHICLE IN A GARAGE. PS A simple wipe with "armor all" on the black plastic seems to work well for me.

Hmm, FWD vs AWD? Maybe the difference? 2009 AWD with 13,000 miles, rotors warped and pads replaced. It is what it is, a bad design. Especially if they put larger rotors on the 2011 model.

QUOTE:akirby "That is standard practice for the finance guy so this probably falls into the area of simple miscommunication (especially since the buyer saw the paperwork and signed it) rather than dishonesty." Ok, "simple miscommunication". I can except that. Everyone makes mistakes. Now, why can't they simply communicate with buyer and make buyer happy? And, I find it amusing that mistakes by dealerships always favor the dealer, very rare that a customer benefits by a dealer's mistakes. We will just agree to disagree on this one. I remember many, many moons ago, when the customer was always right. A customer should not walk unhappy, especially after JUST making a large purchase such as a car. Unhappines usually comes after the purchase, making the monthly payments and trying to get dealership to fix things on the vehicle correctly. LOL

QUOTE: akirby "No, it says everything about automotive franchise laws. Every state has laws that prevent mfrs from interfering in how dealerships run their business. Ford has no say so in how dealers sell their vehicles unless they're doing something illegal. These laws were passed 50+ years ago to keep the mfrs from taking over and forcing smaller dealerships out of business. Today it just makes it almost impossible for Ford to do anything about a shady dealer." Thanks, I did not know that. Good information...

Please, point out the post in this thread where you see half a story? I have a tendancy to believe people when they say they have had a bad experience, unless it so glaringly obvious that what they have written is BS. Do you work for a dealership? And,I've seen forums where folks are blinded because they are in love with a product to a fault. They will defend it and anything related to it from criticism, regardless of facts...I'm not saying that this is the case, but it does happen.

Agreed, and what they are doing may not be illegal, but it is immoral. There is a reason that we all are suspicious of dealerships when making a purchase. AS AN ENTITY THE PROFESSION HAS EARNED OUR MISTRUST. And, dealerships, while independent, still represent the manufacturer's product. If Ford, GM, Chrysler, Toyota etc. let dealerships behave badly without punishment, it says a lot about the company and their product...of course Ford has not manned up about their PTU problems on the Edge/MKX, and MOST car companies hide behind their faulty products and claim ignorance to save a buck at the expense of the consumer,(GM has been well known for this) so, I would not expect them or others to step up to the plate and do the right thing as it pertains to shady dealerships. Again, this is just my opinion that is based on many years of buying cars.

Nonsense! Just because a person is naive or wants to trust a dealership, does not make it right for a dealership to take advantage of that person. You should not have to prepare yourself to purchase a car as if you are preparing to go to war. BUYING A CAR SHOULD BE A PLEASENT EXPERIENCE. It seems as if we have accepted that DEALERSHIPS ARE OUT TO SCREW US, and we must walk into a showroom with our guard up while spraying SHARK REPELLANT IN THE AIR to keep the unscrupulous sales sharks at bay...Blaming a purchaser for bait and switch and fuzzy math, is like placing the blame on the victim of a crime. If a salesperson holds back information or only tells you half the story, it is as good as telling a lie. IMHO

Flushing out and draining is a band aid, not a fix. PTU's should not need a drain and refill every year unless you are abusing the system. I'm aware of what was posted about draining refilling ,install of drain plug etc. It's good information, but I want a better system (modification) if available.

Modifications for speed and handling are great, but any vehicle that goes faster and handles quicker, better have better braking capabilites. The present braking system has a hard enough time stopping a stock vehicle, much less a faster Edge/MKX. I'd like to see mods made to the braking system, and not Brembo brakes that cost thousands of dollars. Some affordable braking mods that won't break the bank would be great. (no pun intended) My MKX needed the rotors turned at 13,000 miles because they were warped. Lincoln dealer was going to put the old pads right back on the MKX after turning the rotors. I asked, "What is going to prevent this from happening again?" Their response, "Nothing is going to prevent this from happening again"...I did some research on ceramic pads and found that there are a lot of ceramic pads on the market, but very few manufacturers send their products out for independent evaluation or testing. One that did was AC/DELCO Professional Durastop ceramic pads. They were recommended (specific application) by "Rock Auto" for the Edge and the MKX on their website...I bought the pads and gave them to the Lincoln dealer to install on the MKX instead of the stock pads... There was an immediate improvement in braking after installation, but than again anything would be a improvement over warped rotors. I'll give it some time and give an update after further evaluation, but so far, so good. AND! I'd like to see some mods for the PTU. It's hard to believe that someone has not come up with an idea involving an attached reservoir system for more gear oil.(if possible?) Just a thought...

How much fluid are they replacing? My MKX owners manual says a 2009 MKX holds 12 ounces. Did you drill the out the PTU while it was still on the vehicle?

I just called the Lincoln Customer Relationship Center, and after conversing with a lady on the other side of the phone, I came to the conclusion that while the concept of customer relationship is nice, that they(Lincoln Customer Relationship Center) ultimately can't MAKE A DEALERSHIP HONOR THEIR (own) USED CAR WARRANTY if the dealership decides that they don't want to...so, that said, why bother. Lincoln Customer Relationship Center said they would talk to the dealership and find me another dealership(if i wanted) to inspect the vehicle for repair, but alas, they don't have any leverage to get my vehicle fixed regardless of what the other dealership found...ok, with all due respect, why should I piss off the dealer that I purchased the MKX from and destroy any bargining relationship that I may have, if the Lincoln Customer Relationship Center has ZERO capacity to enforce the dealership to make repair?!?! Somethings just boggle the mind....

Hmm, I'd feel better doing this on a lift which I don't have access to. I suppose I'll call around and find a shop that can do the change correctly since dealers don't consider this a part that requires maintenance. I'd feel better if it was Ford or Lincoln dealer technician. It's a shame that we (Edge/MKX owners )can't t get this part regularly serviced by a dealer along with an oil change. I'd have no problem paying the money for the service...and, thanks again.

Nick, no I have not. Thanks, I'll give them a call.

fishx65, I've been doing my own brake jobs for many years also. Researched this after my low milage(under warranty) MKX went back to dealer for warped rotors. Dealer had one of those "on-car rotor lathes" that was mentioned in the article... Most of what's in the article makes sense if you think about it.

WWWPerfA_ZN0W, thanks, much appreciated...and has anyone figured out what the correct amount of fluid (gear oil) amount in the PTU is? My owners manual says it is 12 ounces...I understand that if it is over filled it will cause problems (bottom of fill hole) and under filled is not good either...so, if I change it, how much goes back in? 12 ounces? 14 ounces? 16 ounces? What's too little? What's too much?

I found this article interesting. It kills a lot of things(misinformation?)we took as facts concerning brakes and causes of warped rotors...ceramic vs metallic? It seems neither pad(s)causes actual warpage from heat. Raybestos Brake Tech School, Part One: Rotors Don't Warp from heat Written by PFM Staff Brake rotors do not warp from heat, even when driven by the most aggressive traf­fic officer. Instead, they wear unevenly. This uneven wear is caused by the brake pads themselves as they intermittently touch an out-of-true rotor. The root cause of the uneven wear is one of two things: either the rotor was installed out-of-true with the hub, or the tire was improperly torqued to the hub during the last tire change. All of this is important for fleet managers because their vehicles have the tires removed frequently and the pads and rotors replaced frequently. You wont solve a problem caused by wear if you treat it as a problem caused by heat. Instead, fix the rotor installation or wheel lug nut torquing. The problem of pedal vibration, incorrectly called rotor warp, occurs 3,000 to 5,000 miles after the brake or tire change. Because it is caused by uneven rotor wear, not the rotor warping like a potato chip from heat, you cant solve this wear problem by better control of the heat, i.e., by the use of specially processed rotors or drilled and slotted rotors. Instead, you solve the wear problem by fixing the shortcuts in rotor installation or the improper lug nut tightening. By taking a few steps, the fleet manager can easily, quickly and permanently fix the pedal pulsation problem. First, for each rotor change, verify the runout of the rotor, and then do one or two quick things to have it less than 0.002 inch, which is the OE spec for most vehicles. Two, for each tire and wheel change or rotation, torque the lugs in a star pattern using either a torque wrench or torque stick. Those two steps will virtually eliminate premature rotor wear, period. Think about it this way: What are your conservative officers doing to their cars to warp the brake rotors in less than 5,000 miles? They dont get the brakes warm (350 F), let alone patrol-hot (600 F), and never pursuit-hot (850 F). Yet their rotors are warping? No. They are not warping. They are unevenly wearing during the times of zero brake pedal pressure, and your officers are not doing anything to either prevent it or cause it. Foundation Brakes While a lot more was covered, that is the essence of the four-day Affinia-Raybestos Brake System Diagnosis & Repair Course, i.e., Foundation Brakes. This course is half classroom-based and half hands-on. It is held at Affinia-Raybestos headquarters in McHenry, IL and is also conducted at locations across the nation. Class sizes run a maximum of 12 because of all the hands-on work. The Foundation Brake class covers hydraulic braking theory, brake system dynamics, diagnostics, troubleshooting, repair techniques, preventative maintenance practices, rotor resurfacing techniques, bench and on-car lathe operation, brake (friction) pad materials and noise and dust solutions. The Foundation Brake class is not one bit product-oriented. It is not a veiled sales job. It is tech training, and you will get your hands dirty. You will install Raybestos pads, rotors and calipers in this class and Raybestos master cylinders, hoses, lines and valves in other classes. However, brand to brand comparisons are never made, and brand names are seldom mentioned. Instead, the brake tech school is all about brake jobs, accurate diagnosis, fixing it right the first time and preventing comebacksnot about what brand of pad or rotor is better than another. Police Fleet Manager attended the course and recommends it, without reservation, to all new police fleet managers, new maintenance techs, and as a refresher for veteran maintenance techs and new shop superintendents or maintenance supervisors. Just as important as the Foundation Brakes class is for many maintenance techs, so is the three-day Affinia-Raybestos ASE Brake Test Preparation Course. This course provides information, training and sample testing to help techs prepare for ASE Brake Test A5. Affinia-Raybestos also has shorter, stand-alone, hands-on brake lathe (both bench type and on-car), brake system diagnostics and installation, ABS advanced diagnosis and service, and a variety of chassis-suspension and steering courses. The brake foundations course started the way that all real training classes start: with a pre-test. What is the most effective way to pinpoint a spongy brake pedal? Perform an isolation test by clamping all of the brake line hoses. What type of seal is used around the piston in the caliper? A Square Cut Seal. A metering valve restricts initial pressure to where? The front brakes. A proportioning valve limits pressure under hard braking to where? The rear brakes. What is the probable cause for a car with a spongy pedal? Air in the system. Improper lug nut torque or tightening sequence causes rotors to warp. True. Tightening Sequence That last question is where the class instruction started. In the old days, star-pattern tightening using torque wrenches was the only way lug nuts were tightened. Not any more. Today, it is throw the tire and wheel over the lugs, hand start the five lug nuts, then use an air wrench in a once-around circle pattern, and you are done. Doing this, the first few wheel lugs lock the rotor into location while the last few wheel lugs pre-load the rotor, which is like slightly bending a spring. Even worse, even if perfectly tightened to 100 ft-lbs, the last few lugs are false readings. Some of the torque is absorbed in flexing the rotor, not tightening the lug. This is almost guaranteed to cause uneven rotor wear (incorrectly called warped rotors), which results in the tell-tale pedal pulsations after just a few thousand miles. The unevenly torqued rotor, even with the correct amount of torque, will not be bent when the rotor is cold. However, as the rotor heats up in normal use, it will expand unevenly. The most uneven area will, of course, be near the first tightened and last tightened lugs. As the rotor heats up and expands, a runout will be caused, i.e., a high spot on one side and a high spot on the other side. These high spots will come into intermittent contact with the retracted pads during normal driving, i.e., without brake pedal pressure. As this happens, the semi-metallic pad used with police cars will grind away the high spots on either side. On the other hand, the ceramic pad used with retail cars will transfer material to the high spots. In just a few thousand miles, the rotor will have a significant thickness variation, either from worn away rotor or material transfer from the pad. Rotor thickness variation causes brake pedal pulsation and steering wheel vibration! Air Wrench Blues The wrong tightening sequence, even with the right amount of torque, can cause a rotor problem. So can the right tightening sequence with the wrong amount of torque. (No, your air impact wrenches are not calibrated!) Here is what happens. The air wrench increases or decreases in torque as it is being used. The line pressure falls, the air compressor kicks in, the line pressure increases. The result is that an air wrench nominally set at 100 ft-lbs may actually torque the lug nuts to 85, 110, 100, 90, 110, 90. Any variation above 10 percent is bad. The result is exactly the same in the situation where warming causes uneven expansion, as in the situation with the incorrect circular tightening sequence situation. These two causes of premature rotor wear can be easily fixed. First, use a star pattern instead of a circle pattern to tighten the lugs. Second, for those using a torque wrench, first pre-tighten the lugs with the socket wrench, then tighten them afterwards with the torque wrench. Dont overdo it with the socket wrench. The torque wrench must be allowed to tighten the lug at least a little. If it clicks-out without tightening the nut at all, the nut could be way over-torqued. That is what happens if you use a breaker bar for the initial tightening. Third, for those using an air wrench, use torque sticks. Or set the air wrenches under the necessary torque and finish them off with a torque wrench. Rule one: star pattern. Rule two: torque sticks or torque wrench. Follow these rules every time you replace a tire. The Proper Brake Job Properly tightening the lug nuts prevents one major cause of premature rotor wear. The other major cause is improper installation of the rotor. And here is where you may get some resistance from your veteran techs who have been doing brake jobs for 10 years. You cannot do a proper brake job without a dial indicator to measure rotor runout. Those who have turned a wrench before may think they already know how to properly change brake pads and rotors. This may be. However, if the brake job is performed on a modern two-piece hub and rotor the same way it was on the old one-piece hub and rotor, the job is probably not being done properly. That means the brake job is not being done per OE factory spec and how the OE dealers do it. This habit of continuing to do it the old way may explain why rotors produce a pedal pulsation, i.e., warped rotors in just a few thousand miles. That alone may explain premature pad wear and premature rotor wear, even in premature for police operations. A brake repair shop without a dial indicator is like an engine rebuild shop without a torque wrench, said Dann Ingebritson, technical instructor, Affinia Under Vehicle Group. The rotor lateral runout is a slight wobble or slight wave in the surface of the rotor as it is being rotated. This out-of-true condition can be caused by an out-of-parallel condition of the rotoreven a brand new one or one that just came off the bench lathe. This can also be caused by an out-of-parallel hub mounting surface or by a stack up of out-of-true conditions on both the rotor and hub. This runout or wobble will cause exactly the same intermittent contact between the rotor and the pad as the improperly torqued lug nuts. Again, material will be removed from the rotor by semi-met pads, or added to the rotor by ceramic pads in just the high spots. Again, the result is rotor thickness variation which causes brake pedal pulsation and steering wheel vibration. Again, the rotors need replacement in less than 5,000 miles. Again, the officer driving the car does nothing to cause the problem. This was not a problem 10 years ago when the runout spec was 0.010 inch or so and the brake pads used softer friction materials. Today, this is a major problem, when the runout is 0.002 inch max and the pads are rock hard. Dial Indicator When the new or cut rotor is put back on, torque it in place. Clamp a flex-arm dial indicator on a solid part of the suspension, place the indicator tip on the rotor, zero the dial and slowly rotate the rotor. A rotor runout gauge set costs about $50 and is available at any auto parts store or online. Google the term rotor runout dial indicator and you will find many. Check the OE spec, but most police sedans call for a maximum runout of 0.002 inch. If the runout is less than that, put the caliper and tire on! If you have cleaned the hub with a wire brush or roto-brush, including the surface very close to the lugs, and you are using a new high quality rotor, the majority of the time the runout will be in-spec. If the hub surface is not perfectly clean, if you bought a cheap rotor or if the rotor has been cut on a lathe with an excessive runout, the rotor runout will be out-of-spec. Mark the high spot. Something must be done or this rotor will cause pedal pulsation in just a few thousand miles. If the rotor is indicating an excessive amount of lateral runout, the tech has three options. One is a quick and easy option which works about 80 percent of the time, one is a fairly easy but more expensive option that works 95 percent of the time, and one is a slower and harder option that absolutely works every time. Rotor Indexing The easy solution is to take the rotor off the hub, rotate it about half way around and bolt it back in place. (On the 5-lug police cars, rotate it not quite 180 degrees, one way or the other.) Now indicate the rotor. Most of the time it will now be in-spec. Why? The rotor surface has a slight runout and, separately, the hub surface has a slight runout. When you bolt the rotor to the hub, you stack these tolerances. Lets assume the rotor is out by 0.003 inch and the hub is out by 0.002 inch. Mounted with the high spot of the rotor on top of the higher spot on the hub, the assembly will have a runout of 0.005 inch, which is terrible. Now rotate the rotor on the lug pattern, i.e., index the high spot of the rotor over a low spot on the hub, and the runout is just 0.001 inch, which is excellent. Indexing the rotor works most of the time. It only takes a few minutes to remove the rotor, rotate it, replace it and indicate it. You may think, Hey, thats not in my flat rate. Actually, it probably is. Brake Align Shims The fairly easy option that works almost all the time involves the use of Brake Align correction plates, AKA shims or spacers. Again, indicate the mounted rotor and mark the high spot on the rotor. Also, mark the lug, or the two closest lugs, nearest the high spot. Remove the rotor and put the correct shim over the wheel lugs. Put the notch in the correction plate closest to the marked lugs. The notch marks the thinnest part of the shim. Put the rotor back on, just how it came off, and indicate it. It will be in-spec. The Brake Align shims come in a wide assortment of thicknesses, in 0.001-inch increments or so to make correction for a variety of runout conditions. If you need a 0.009-inch shim, start replacing parts rather than shimming them. The Brake Align shims are a bit expensive at about $20 each. That is a pretty costly solution to an out-of-spec rotor. Cut the rotor on a lathe or send it back to Cheap R Us auto parts store where it came from. However, what if the high quality rotor is perfect? What if the excessive runout is in the hub? The Brake Align shim is certainly less expensive than a new hub. The final solution, and one that works every time, is the on-car rotor lathe. Of course, that assumes your shop has one of these $3,500 to $5,000 tools. Hunter Engineering, Kwik-Way and Pro-Cut all make this equipment. Well have more on rotor cutting in the next issue. For more information on classes and schedules, contact Affinia-Raybestos Technical Services at (815) 363-9000 or (800) 274-4631. Published in Police Fleet Manager, Mar/Apr 2010 http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/article_archive/results/details?id=1787

Unfortunately, it's a dealer warranty with a $100.00 deductable They would have to eat the rest. Yeah, I did press, insisted and actually talked to the owner of the dealership. Again, tech and owner both say it does not require repair at this time. Owner insists that they won't leave me hanging if there a problem...My gut instinct tells me I'm being screwed. Reality tells me I don't have much choice since dealer is self insured...other than pushing legal action, I don't have many options, I could file for small claims court in Pa...as I stated, burning bridges at that point. If they screw me, they lose a customer for life. I told owner same, and he says he is aware of that being a possibility, and that was why he documented issue...It's just seems rediculous to me, just fix the damn thing and problem is solved all the way around. (Silver Spring? Yep, been down that way a time or two. Work in Baltimore (FireFighter) and commute back and forth to Carroll. Long drive, but worth the effort.)

Oh, OK...gotcha. Thanks. Is the trans seal leak a slow progresive type problem, or do they fail all at once with sudden loss of fluid? At this time, I see no evidence of any leaks under the vehicle...and, Yeah, I absolutely agree, a leak is a leak PERIOD! I contacted owner of the dealership, he won't budge. He says he spoke with tech and tech says it's not necessary right now...I'm still calling BS. I don't want to burn my bridges just yet (they self insure with warranty)...and, in reality if they did not tell me there was some type of leakage, I would not have known it. They could have said nothing...as I stated, no evidence of leakage at all. I park in a clean garage...nothing on floor. WWWPerfA_ZN0W, I also live in Md. I'm in Carroll County Md on the Pa line. I bought MKX in Pa.