Lex Talionis Posted January 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 Hi Lex. :D Glad it all worked out in the end. Additionally, there are rules the Dealer must follow for X-Plan sales. First, did they show you the "Factory Invoice" (not the "MSRP" Window Sticker) with the box labeled "X-Plan"? Did they give you a copy of that "Factory Invoice"? They are required to do those things. Also, be sure the Dealer charged you no extra fees, other than Tax, Title and Registration and a "Documentation Fee" (which according to X-Plan rules is limited to a $75 maximum). I hope your wait is not too long, and good luck! :beerchug: I do not recall a "Factory Invoice with the box labeled "X-Plan"" nor do I have a copy of the factory invoice. How do I know if they charged me extra fees? I see see here FDAF ASSESSMENT of $464 (I think is advertising), DEST and DELIV of $705, I have in my hands a 1 page paper that is entitled Vehicle Order Confirmation and shows things like RETAIL and DLR INV prices. It shows the RETAIL next to the DLR INV price and the code for each option. It says *this is not an invoice* and then shows TOTAL BASE AND OPTIONS with a RETAIL price and then the DLR INV price and then the price for A/Z PLAN, D PLAN, X PLAN. What should I do next then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbf2530 Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 (edited) I do not recall a "Factory Invoice with the box labeled "X-Plan"" nor do I have a copy of the factory invoice. How do I know if they charged me extra fees? I see see here FDAF ASSESSMENT of $464 (I think is advertising), DEST and DELIV of $705, I have in my hands a 1 page paper that is entitled Vehicle Order Confirmation and shows things like RETAIL and DLR INV prices. It shows the RETAIL next to the DLR INV price and the code for each option. It says *this is not an invoice* and then shows TOTAL BASE AND OPTIONS with a RETAIL price and then the DLR INV price and then the price for A/Z PLAN, D PLAN, X PLAN. What should I do next then? Hi Lex. :D Holy Mother of Pearl, I was afraid of this next. Okay, let me try to explain in some sort of coherent fashion: Since you ordered, there would not be a "Factory Invoice" yet. However, the Dealer did give you the computer sheet which has "Vehicle Order Confirmation" printed across the top. This is good. As you mentioned this sheet has all of your order specifics (Vehicle, Model, Trim Level, Interior and Exterior Colors, Options, etc, etc.), and the Retail and Invoice pricing. On this sheet, the field labeled "X-Plan", is your X-Plan price. That will be your base X-Plan price (before eligible Incentives are deducted). That X-Plan price already includes all fees, including the FDAF, Dest, Delivery, etc, etc. The only "Fee" not included is a $75 maximum "Documentation Charge" (or 'Fee'). The only charges a Dealer may add to that X-Plan price are the following: Tax, Title and Registration, the above mentioned $75 maximum "Documentation Fee" and any Dealer Installed Accessories which you agree to in the contract (i.e. pinstriping, extended warranties, etc.). Then, when your vehicle arrives at the Dealership, they will also get the "Factory Invoice". They are required by Ford, to show you the original, and give you a copy of the "Factory Invoice". On this Factory invoice will be a box labeled "X-Plan". Again, the price in this box is your X-Plan price (before Incentives). This price should match the price which was on the "Vehicle Order Confirmation Sheet" that you received when you ordered the vehicle. Also, it would not hurt your situation to send a PM to the Ford Employee who provided your X-Plan PIN and ask them to sign you up for the FordMyPlan website. It explains all of the ins and outs of the Plan, what your rights are, what the Dealer is required to do, etc, etc. Hopefully, the Ford Employee will be nice enough to do that for you. Hope this information helps. Good luck! :beerchug: Edited January 4, 2008 by bbf2530 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex Talionis Posted January 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 (edited) All seems good then by what you explain. If VOC means Vehicle Order Confirmation - as I said I DO have this in my hands. So, it seems I am good there as I have this. When the car arrives in 6-8 weeks I need to also get the "Factory Invoice" and match with the VOC I have already. I understand that. A cross check that should be done as it is also a requirement on their end to provide. Will do. My only 3 real questions then are: (1) when looking at my VOC is there a way they can pull shenanigans on me and inflate it in some way an unsavy guy would not know? (2) on my VOC are the itemized additional FDAF and DEST & DELIV prices, but I see no DOC FEE, so when you say that "The X-Plan price already includes all fees (including the FDAF, Dest, Delivery, etc, etc.)." does that mean they added them 2 times - 1 built into the x-plan and 1 in the itemized list or did they just itemize them for me? (3) did I do a wise and good move by getting and going the X-Plan route or could I have done better on my own straight negotiating? I am under the impression the X-Plan was the way to go, but not 100% sure... BTW.. thanks a ton for all the help. I am not as helpless as I may seem, just not been through all of this in years and the last time I was a kid and just winged it on the spot (and paid dearly for it I came to find out). Edited January 4, 2008 by Lex Talionis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbf2530 Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 (edited) All seems good then by what you explain. If VOC means Vehicle Order Confirmation - as I said I DO have this in my hands. So, it seems I am good there as I have this. When the car arrives in 6-8 weeks I need to also get the "Factory Invoice" and match with the VOC I have already. I understand that. A cross check that should be done as it is also a requirement on their end to provide. Will do. My only 3 real questions then are: (1) when looking at my VOC is there a way they can pull shenanigans on me and inflate it in some way an unsavy guy would not know? (2) on my VOC are the itemized additional FDAF and DEST & DELIV prices, but I see no DOC FEE, so when you say that "The X-Plan price already includes all fees (including the FDAF, Dest, Delivery, etc, etc.)." does that mean they added them 2 times - 1 built into the x-plan and 1 in the itemized list or did they just itemize them for me? (3) did I do a wise and good move by getting and going the X-Plan route or could I have done better on my own straight negotiating? I am under the impression the X-Plan was the way to go, but not 100% sure... BTW.. thanks a ton for all the help. I am not as helpless as I may seem, just not been through all of this in years and the last time I was a kid and just winged it on the spot (and paid dearly for it I came to find out). Hi Lex. :D Yes "VOC" = Vehicle Order Confirmation, sorry that wasn't clear for some reason. Did your Dealer also give you an order form listing the X-Plan price, tax, Title and Registration Fees, Doc Fee, etc. In other words, the price out the door, not including Incentives, since they may change? They may not have, since the deal specifics may will change if the Incentives do. It wouldn't hurt to ask for all of the specifics, excluding Incentives, at this point. Moving on, to answer your questions: 1 - It is highly doubtful that they would try to pull something like you are worried about, then put it in writing and hand it to you as evidence. 2 - The VOC comes from the Ford Ordering System. While everything is itemized, it is the price listed next to "X-Plan" on the "VOC" that you should be concerned about. Forget the other prices, fees, etc, etc. listed on the "VOC". To you, all of that is now unnecessary fluff. If they are going to charge you a "Doc Fee", it will be on the "Final Purchase Contract" along with the Tax, Title and Registration Fees. It will not be listed on the "VOC". The "VOC' is just the confirmation that the order has been received into the Ford System. 3 - Yes, you definitely did the right thing. While you will see interesting stories by people who say they beat X-Plan pricing on their own, except for an extremely small percentage of these stories, they essentially were taken and did not know it (by additional fees, slick salesmanship, higher APR rates on their loans etc, etc). The ones who were able to get a better than X-Plan price were purchasing very low demand vehicles. The Edge does not qualify as one of those. There is one way that I/we can help you be sure the X-Plan price listed is correct (although at this point I believe it is): If you like, go to Fordvehicles.com. Once there, click on "Search Dealer Inventory". Follow the prompts to do a search of the Dealer Inventory in your ZIP Code (or any other). Find an EDGE Limited that is optioned exactly like yours. Once you find one, come back here and post the VIN, along with the Dealer name and ZIP Code. I can then find out the exact X-Plan price for that vehicle, which will be the same as your X-Plan price. I really think at this point, from the information you have in your hands, the Dealer seems to be following the rules. But it never hurts to keep your eyes open. If you wish, come back with another Dealer Stock Edge and we will price it for you. Good luck! :beerchug: Edited January 4, 2008 by bbf2530 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex Talionis Posted January 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 No price out the door paperwork.. but from what he said it would be that VOC + tax, title, license (about 9% he says) and - any incentives, which we know will likely change to some degree in 6-8 weeks. Closest I could find for similar rig (which is pretty much same as mine but camel leather versus my black and a 395$ tow package I did not order versus my 489$ credit for the wheels I did not want) so should give me good idea if correct.... 2FMDK39C38BA40959 Encinitas Ford Encinitas CA 92024 BTW, 1 thing I did notice that I found odd was that on every option the "Retail" price lines up with exactly what is on the web and every other piece of literature EXCEPT 1 item. In my invoice it shows the Panoramic Roof (43p) as 1495 while it is listed everywhere else as 1395 - including the above cars VIN and the web and brochures... what is up with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northeastsnake Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 I went the SEL loaded way.. Special Ordered with X plan. I remember running the pricing with the dealer....the limited is "cheaper" or very close with all the options...I just couldn't live with the chrome (plastic) wheels. Dealer didn't offer the limited with 18" painted swap ..luck you. I probably would have gone that way... Limited badging means nothing to me and in a way is a negative for me...("the car make the name..not the name makes the car"...) We have had the vehicle for almost a month now. My wife's car...she absolutely loves it..and speeks highly of it to others.... I drive it the weekend sometimes... Configuration: SEL AWD NAV 18" painted wheels Dark Ink Blue/Black leather Interior Sync. Audiophile Premium Interior Package (leather seats, dual climate, homelink, etc) BAMR only bad thing about this configuration is front passenger seat does have same features as dealer side.. pictures of this car are in the gallery for those interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbf2530 Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 (edited) No price out the door paperwork.. but from what he said it would be that VOC + tax, title, license (about 9% he says) and - any incentives, which we know will likely change to some degree in 6-8 weeks. Closest I could find for similar rig (which is pretty much same as mine but camel leather versus my black and a 395$ tow package I did not order versus my 489$ credit for the wheels I did not want) so should give me good idea if correct.... 2FMDK39C38BA40959 Encinitas Ford Encinitas CA 92024 BTW, 1 thing I did notice that I found odd was that on every option the "Retail" price lines up with exactly what is on the web and every other piece of literature EXCEPT 1 item. In my invoice it shows the Panoramic Roof (43p) as 1495 while it is listed everywhere else as 1395 - including the above cars VIN and the web and brochures... what is up with that? Hi Lex. :D The X-Plan price for that Edge is $33,924 (the MSRP is $36,055). So now you have a general idea what the X-Plan price should be on your Edge (not including the option difference). Interior color has no effect on price. As far as the price difference on the Moon Roof, I can't answer that at the moment. Maybe someone else has the definitive answer to that one, or you can pose that question to the Dealer? Good luck! :beerchug: Edited January 4, 2008 by bbf2530 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex Talionis Posted January 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 Hi Lex. :D The X-Plan price for that Edge is $33,924 (the MSRP is $36,055). So now you have a general idea what the X-Plan price should be on your Edge (not including the option difference). Interior color has no effect on price. As far as the price difference on the Moon Roof, I can't answer that at the moment. Maybe someone else has the definitive answer to that one, or you can pose that question to the Dealer? Good luck! :beerchug: something seems off here then... If that VIN has an X-Plan of 33,924 AND it has the expensive tow package... my X-plan with NO tow package is 33,875... just $49 cheaper for me?? not possible. Plus, I have that odd $100 extra on the panoramic roof retail cost.... does that vin show what the DLR INV is on that roof? Mine says RETAIL of 1495 and DLR INV of 1271. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbf2530 Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 (edited) something seems off here then... If that VIN has an X-Plan of 33,924 AND it has the expensive tow package... my X-plan with NO tow package is 33,875... just $49 cheaper for me?? not possible. Plus, I have that odd $100 extra on the panoramic roof retail cost.... does that vin show what the DLR INV is on that roof? Mine says RETAIL of 1495 and DLR INV of 1271. Hi Lex. :D The most likely solution to this mystery is that you missed something when comparing the two vehicles standard and optional equipment. And yes, the Moon Roof is listed on the stock Edge at $1,395. I have no idea why yours is listed at $1,495. Price increase? I don't know at this point. I really cannot solve this by going back and forth comparing things when I do not have all of the necessary information. If you would like to scan and PM me your "VOC" (black out any personal information), I can compare the equipment and price lists. But we will get no where fast like this. Please do not take this personally (as I am truly trying to help), but I have done this so many times, and seen the final result to usually be something was misread. Essentially, the X-Plan price is the X-Plan price. There really is no way for the Dealer to "fudge" the figures on the "VOC". And if the X-Plan price on your "VOC" matches the X-Plan price on the "Factory Invoice" when it comes in, all is well. You will drive yourself crazy doing it this way. Let me know if you want me to check further. Good luck! :beerchug: Edited January 4, 2008 by bbf2530 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex Talionis Posted January 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 your right.. I am 100% going crazy as things do not line up with what I see on the web or other literature - I just do not want to get taken for a ride as I have once before and vowed to never have it happen again your right.. it could be my error... but I am a pretty anal guy (obviously) your right... we could do this back and forth 4ever at this rate your right.... I will scan and send my VOC so you can maybe find where my error is as several things (from the vista roof oddity to the claimed base level invoice price versus this invoice price is as all the items you will see match up perfect with the invoice price but the vista roof and the national base price???) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbf2530 Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 (edited) your right.. I am 100% going crazy as things do not line up with what I see on the web or other literature - I just do not want to get taken for a ride as I have once before and vowed to never have it happen again your right.. it could be my error... but I am a pretty anal guy (obviously) your right... we could do this back and forth 4ever at this rate your right.... I will scan and send my VOC so you can maybe find where my error is as several things (from the vista roof oddity to the claimed base level invoice price versus this invoice price is as all the items you will see match up perfect with the invoice price but the vista roof and the national base price???) Hi Lex. :D Okay, I took a better look at the VOC you sent me. Here are the differences I noticed (and which you also saw): Ford Website - Base Retail $30,320 / Your VOC - Base Retail $30,555 (Difference + $235) Ford Website - Panoramic Roof $1,395 / Your VOC - Panoramic Sunroof $1,495 (Difference + $100) The Total Invoice Price on your VOC ($33,935.95) is correct, if the other pricing is correct. The X-Plan pricing calculation is as follows: Total Invoice Price X .996 + a $75 Administrative fee = the X-Plan Price. Using that calculation, we would come up with this calculation: $33,935.95 X .996 = $33,800.206 + $75 = $33,875.206 Round that figure up and you get $33,875.21. This figure matches the X-Plan price on your VOC exactly. The only thing I can surmise is there was some sort of price increase on the Base Retail/Invoice, and the Panoramic Roof? But at the moment, I can find no information to that effect. I think the best course of action is to ask the Dealer why there is a discrepancy between the published website pricing and your VOC, concerning the Edge Limited Base Retail Price (+$235), and the Panoramic Roof (+$100). Essentially, those two price differences, a total of $335 Retail (of course, the Invoice prices would be slightly less, but not much) seem to add up to your price difference concern. Let us know what they say. :beerchug: Edited January 4, 2008 by bbf2530 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 (edited) When Ford makes price changes, vehicles in inventory have the old price and anything ordered after the price change gets the new prices. Price level 815 which was effective 6/6/07 shows the BAMR at $1395. I don't have the latest prices but I can surmise that the base price went up and the BAMR increased by $100. Had you found a unit in inventory that was invoiced under the old prices, you would have saved that difference. The dealer is not trying to take advantage of you. Prices change and incentives change. Your pricing will be what is shown on your VOC. See it it has PL820 or PL825 as the price level spmewhere on the VOC. Edited January 4, 2008 by Grey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex Talionis Posted January 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 When Ford makes price changes, vehicles in inventory have the old price and anything ordered after the price change gets the new prices. Price level 815 which was effective 6/6/07 shows the BAMR at $1395. I don't have the latest prices but I can surmise that the base price went up and the BAMR increased by $100. Had you found a unit in inventory that was invoiced under the old prices, you would have saved that difference. The dealer is not trying to take advantage of you. Prices change and incentives change. Your pricing will be what is shown on your VOC. See it it has PL820 or PL825 as the price level spmewhere on the VOC. is there a definitive way to determine if in fact there was a price increase in both the base price and the vista roof price rather than just guessing that is the issue? there must be some way to find out if that is the story so this can be put to rest for me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbf2530 Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 (edited) is there a definitive way to determine if in fact there was a price increase in both the base price and the vista roof price rather than just guessing that is the issue? there must be some way to find out if that is the story so this can be put to rest for me? Hi Lex. :D Yes, ask the Dealer. As I mentioned in my previous post (#36 ), the prices on the VOC you sent me seem to all align correctly with the "Total Invoice" and "X-Plan" prices listed on it. The VOC is a printout from the Ford Ordering System, it is not really a "fudgeable" item. So it would seem that there has been a small price increase. But if you still have doubts, ask the Dealer In addition, the website pricing will probably soon be updated to reflect those changes. You are really causing yourself a lot of unecessary grief and worry. Just ask the Dealer. Also, as previously mentioned, your safety check is being sure that the X-Plan pricing on the VOC and the Factory Invoice match when your Edge arrives at the Dealership. Good luck! :beerchug: Edited January 4, 2008 by bbf2530 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex Talionis Posted January 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 (edited) yes yes.. of course I had always planned to ask the dealer. you think I am not getting it but I am. much of this did not come to light until well after they closed last night. BUT what I am trying to do is have correct information so I can try to deal with the dealer with full information and not just pulling it out of the air when I do ask him - which I will do of course. For example, so you understand why I am asking and looking for verifiable proof, if the last known increase was 6/6/07 and the dealer did not inform me of a price increase prior to ordering despite having talked 3 times in person, I have a leg to stand on to negotiate. Also for example, if the price increase did happen and it happened just yesterday the day I ordered, then maybe I also have a leg to stand on to negotiate that $335 increase. the more I know, the more informed I am, the better my negotiation versus just walking in and saying "I heard that maybe possibly there could have maybe been a possible increase." No, I want to walk in and say, "I see that on xxx a new increase went into effect that I was not informed was coming and not told about during the 3 occasions over 2 weeks I looked at this car." feel me?? Edited January 4, 2008 by Lex Talionis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbf2530 Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 (edited) yes yes.. of course I had always planned to ask the dealer. you think I am not getting it but I am. much of this did not come to light until well after they closed last night. BUT what I am trying to do is have correct information so I can try to deal with the dealer with full information and not just pulling it out of the air when I do ask him - which I will do of course. For example, so you understand why I am asking and looking for verifiable proof, if the last known increase was 6/6/07 and the dealer did not inform me of a price increase prior to ordering despite having talked 3 times in person, I have a leg to stand on to negotiate. Also for example, if the price increase did happen and it happened just yesterday the day I ordered, then maybe I also have a leg to stand on to negotiate that $335 increase. the more I know, the more informed I am, the better my negotiation versus just walking in and saying "I heard that maybe possibly there could have maybe been a possible increase." No, I want to walk in and say, "I see that on xxx a new increase went into effect that I was not informed was coming and not told about during the 3 occasions over 2 weeks I looked at this car." feel me?? Hi Lex. :D There is no negotiating on an X-Plan price. You get the price available when you order. On an X-Plan sale (and in reality, any sale) it does not matter if the price increased the day before you ordered. If you want the old price, you will have to purchase an Edge from the Dealer stock that was ordered under the old pricing structure. The X-Plan price listed on the VOC and the Factory Invoice, is the X-Plan price, no if's ands or but's. Again, I am only trying to help, but your theory of "...if the last known increase was 6/6/07 and the dealer did not inform me of a price increase prior to ordering despite having talked 3 times in person, I have a leg to stand on to negotiate", is completely incorrect. The X-plan price is the X-Plan price. There is no clearer way to explain it. Your only question, if you insist on going further, is to ask the Dealer if/when the price increase occurred. And then, it is only to satisfy your curiosity, as an X-Plan sale is an X-Plan sale, and again, the price is the price. The Dealer cannot change the X-Plan price, it is set by Ford. If there was a price increase (and we all agree there must have been), you do not have a leg to stand on in any "negotiations". If you want to negotiate, you will no longer be purchasing on the X-Plan. So be ready for higher prices, and added "Fees and Charges". It cannot be put any simpler. Good luck! :beerchug: Edited January 4, 2008 by bbf2530 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex Talionis Posted January 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 everything is negotiable my friend..... (you just have to ask and be prepared with the correct intel should they bite) even the wheels I wanted from an SEL on a Limited that everyone - including people here and at the dealer (like my Salesman) - said 'is just not possible'. anyway.... we can let this rest and move on .. nothing more to add and my last follow up will be after talking to the dealer on the topic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbf2530 Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 (edited) everything is negotiable my friend..... (you just have to ask and be prepared with the correct intel should they bite) even the wheels I wanted from an SEL on a Limited that everyone - including people here and at the dealer (like my Salesman) - said 'is just not possible'. anyway.... we can let this rest and move on .. nothing more to add and my last follow up will be after talking to the dealer on the topic Hi Lex. :D X-Plan pricing is not negotiable. Also, I don't understand why you say that "even the wheels I wanted from an SEL on a Limited that everyone - including people here and at the dealer (like my Salesman) - said 'is just not possible'," when it was I (and others here) that specifically told you to try negotiating the wheel switch. In fact, I gave you the suggestion, which you stated you used, to pitch the wheel switch as a Win-Win to the Dealer, and it worked.. What we told you would not happen, was being able to order both option packages you wanted (Premium and Seating) on the SEL. To get them you would need to order the Limited. Then, if you wanted the SEL wheels, you would need to work that out with the Dealership. Which is exactly what happened and exactly what you did. Please keep in mind that we are only trying to help you. Good luck! :beerchug: Edited January 4, 2008 by bbf2530 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex Talionis Posted January 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 your right.. I am wrong... uncle uncle uncle.. I give.. I tap out.... my bad... sorry.... again.. thank you for the help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbf2530 Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 (edited) your right.. I am wrong... uncle uncle uncle.. I give.. I tap out.... my bad... sorry.... again.. thank you for the help You are welcome, Lex. And I would be happy to help anytime. I hope your Edge gets here as soon as possible, I think you will love it! Good luck! :beerchug: Edited January 4, 2008 by bbf2530 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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