E85 Flex Fuel Conversion Kit

[msfd350]

Has anyone looked into or even taken the plunge into an E85 Conversion kit for either the Edge or the MKX? It seems that Fo Mo Co has left us in the lurch - while GM SUV's have been Flex Fuel capable for more than 8-10 years already - there doesn't seem to be any light at the end of the tunnel for those of us loyal to Ford. I love my MKX (it is my second and my wife is on her second MKZ). I would really like to take advantage of the new E85 stations popping up all over Long Island with significantly less expensive fuel - especially since I do over 25000 miles per year.

 

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

2009 MKX

2008 MKZ

[bbf2530]

Has anyone looked into or even taken the plunge into an E85 Conversion kit for either the Edge or the MKX? It seems that Fo Mo Co has left us in the lurch - while GM SUV's have been Flex Fuel capable for more than 8-10 years already - there doesn't seem to be any light at the end of the tunnel for those of us loyal to Ford. I love my MKX (it is my second and my wife is on her second MKZ). I would really like to take advantage of the new E85 stations popping up all over Long Island with significantly less expensive fuel - especially since I do over 25000 miles per year.

 

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

2009 MKX

2008 MKZ

 

 

Hi msfd. :D I do not know of anyone who has as of yet. First of all, it would lead to major Warranty problems (for those who care about their Warranty) and second, there would be some not-exactly-insignificant hurdles to overcome concerning PCM/ECM programming etc.

 

However, just wanted to mention one point that many people do not realize (or fail to take into account when comparing fuel prices: That "significantly less expensive fuel" (E-85) also gives significantly lower fuel mileage. So in the end, the price advantage disappears, and most drivers wind up paying the same cost/per mile. The advantage may swing one way or the other according to regional pricing, but the differences are normally negligible in the end.

 

Not trying to tell you what to do, just pointing out some hurdles which you may encounter.

 

Whatever you decide to do, good luck. :beerchug:

Edited June 20, 2010 by bbf2530

[akirby]

Expect 20%-25% worse fuel mileage, which will certainly eat up any savings per gallon.

 

The biggest issue with a conversion kit is that you need new PCM programming to adjust the timing to compensate for a variable octane rating from 87 to over 100. The rest is just swapping materials to be ethanol resistant.

 

It's very hard and not really worth it.

 

Why isn't Ford doing more of it like GM? See previous statement. And the same reason Ford didn't copy GMs 100K mile, 5 yr warranty.

[L1TECH]

The 1st reason for not doing it is that it isn't worth it. Like others have said the hit you take in fuel mileage may end up actually costing you more. Yes GM has been offering it for years on their vehicles but look at which compnay is still above water adn that should answer your questions...after all GM is still betting the farm on the truck/suv market...they haven't learned anything.

[rpm]

The 1st reason for not doing it is that it isn't worth it. Like others have said the hit you take in fuel mileage may end up actually costing you more. Yes GM has been offering it for years on their vehicles but look at which compnay is still above water adn that should answer your questions...after all GM is still betting the farm on the truck/suv market...they haven't learned anything.

 

Okay, first of all that makes no sense. GM's financial situation has nothing to do with their vehicles being compatible with E85. I used to own a 2001 Taurus which was a flex fuel vehicle. You could fill up with plain gas, blended gas, and e85. Hell, if we had 100% ethanol fuel it could even burn that. (Like they do down in Brazil) There are STILL Ford vehicles being produced today which run on E85, mainly fleet vehicles. Most of the Ford city vehicles in my area also burn E85. So to assume that GM went under because of their E85 compatible engines is just wrong.

 

Second, who's to say that it isn't worth it?? Sure, you will get lower mileage, but you'll be releasing fewer toxins back into the atmosphere when you drive your Edge. Ethanol is here to stay for quite some time. Call me crazy but it's probably cheaper to convert a gasoline-powered car to run E85, versus buying a new "green" vehicle. How else do we expect to transition from gasoline to alternative fuels? You can't do it overnight, especially when the majority of the population owns gas-powered vehicles. Conversion kits would be the first step to this transition.

 

msfd350, it never hurts to ask your dealer. They may even have a conversion kit, or collection of parts that they use for converting fleet vehicles to E85.

[ablb]

Okay, first of all that makes no sense. GM's financial situation has nothing to do with their vehicles being compatible with E85. I used to own a 2001 Taurus which was a flex fuel vehicle. You could fill up with plain gas, blended gas, and e85. Hell, if we had 100% ethanol fuel it could even burn that. (Like they do down in Brazil) There are STILL Ford vehicles being produced today which run on E85, mainly fleet vehicles. Most of the Ford city vehicles in my area also burn E85. So to assume that GM went under because of their E85 compatible engines is just wrong.

 

Second, who's to say that it isn't worth it?? Sure, you will get lower mileage, but you'll be releasing fewer toxins back into the atmosphere when you drive your Edge. Ethanol is here to stay for quite some time. Call me crazy but it's probably cheaper to convert a gasoline-powered car to run E85, versus buying a new "green" vehicle. How else do we expect to transition from gasoline to alternative fuels? You can't do it overnight, especially when the majority of the population owns gas-powered vehicles. Conversion kits would be the first step to this transition.

 

“Sure, you will get lower mileage, but you'll be releasing fewer toxins back into the atmosphere when you drive your Edge.”

 

Are you sure e85 is cleaner?

 

Sure the epa says it is but is it really?

NOTE: Brazil uses a sugar based E85 which is MUCH more efficient than our corn e85.

 

The vehicle would only move about 5’ for the epa test. Wonder what a “real world test would =?

 

Here’s my version.

 

Our mkx will go about 325 miles per highway tank on e10 (anybody know what our millage would be on REAL gas?)

Our mkx would only go about 240 per highway tank on e85.

 

Looks like we would need 1 and ¼ tanks of e85 to travel the same miles!

¼ MORE e85 doesn’t sound very clean.

 

ab

 

msfd350, it never hurts to ask your dealer. They may even have a conversion kit, or collection of parts that they use for converting fleet vehicles to E85.

[rpm]

How do you know you will only get 240 miles per tank on E85? Did you convert your MKX to burn it? Or is this just a mathematic assumption? Just because YOU might get 240 miles out of a tank of gas doesn't mean Joe Blo will have the same mileage. If you haven't bought a conversion kit for your vehicle then you can't even begin to make assumptions on mileage. If I accidentally put E85 in my Edge, it's going to run rough and get terrible mileage because it doesn't have the proper fuel injectors or computer mapping. The only way to get mileage estimates is to do a real world test. Just because you did some math does not mean it's correct

[akirby]

How do you know you will only get 240 miles per tank on E85? Did you convert your MKX to burn it? Or is this just a mathematic assumption? Just because YOU might get 240 miles out of a tank of gas doesn't mean Joe Blo will have the same mileage. If you haven't bought a conversion kit for your vehicle then you can't even begin to make assumptions on mileage. If I accidentally put E85 in my Edge, it's going to run rough and get terrible mileage because it doesn't have the proper fuel injectors or computer mapping. The only way to get mileage estimates is to do a real world test. Just because you did some math does not mean it's correct

 

There are TONS of actual mileage comparisons at fueleconomy.gov. Just go compare the fuel economy of vehicles with and without E85 and you'll see that it's almost universally a 25% reduction. it's all physics since the rest of the car remains the same.

 

The point about GM's financial situation is that maybe they aren't the best role model when it comes to automotive decisions such as to make lots of flex fuel vehicles. It certainly hasn't helped them remain solvent up to this point.

 

E85 is not the savior.

[ablb]

There are TONS of actual mileage comparisons at fueleconomy.gov. Just go compare the fuel economy of vehicles with and without E85 and you'll see that it's almost universally a 25% reduction. it's all physics since the rest of the car remains the same.

 

The point about GM's financial situation is that maybe they aren't the best role model when it comes to automotive decisions such as to make lots of flex fuel vehicles. It certainly hasn't helped them remain solvent up to this point.

 

E85 is not the savior.

Plus letters from manufactures.

 

We received a letter from BMW highly recommending we NOT use it, and if we did we should expect a dramatic decrease in performance and a 25% decrease in MPG.

 

ab

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

Ok, not E85, then how about a hydrogen fuel cell, from FORD!!! In 2008!!!

 

[macbwt]

Not a fan of ethanol. Something about using our food to make fuel. IMO.

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

I don't mind them burning up GMO corn though.

[macbwt]

No comment. Don't want to change the topic.

I don't mind them burning up GMO corn though.

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

As a side note, on the GDI EB engines, if you notice soot regularly building up on the tailpipes, one solution that seems to work is to mix your regular gasoline with a wee shot of E85. Bumping it up to E15 (max) with E85 from E10 base gasoline has provided anecdotal proof that it works. If you monitor Knock Retard, and are experiencing positive numbers, a shot of E85 can help bring them back down to 0 or negative.

[Andrew Davis]

1. E85 is much better for the environment.

2. You actually end up with a surplus of food when you make ethanol. Ethanol is usually made from corn, corn which is usually fed to animals after. That corn HAS to be fermented (making ethanol) before it can be made into feed for the animals anyway. So you don't actually lose any food, you actually have a surplus of it. Check the stats, this is correct.

3. In most E-85 ready vehicles (especially Chevrolet) the timing is actually retarded in the computer calculation for the E-85 vehicles making them get worse gas mileage.

 

I could go on, but what I'm saying is you have been told a lot of lies and BS from the automobile industry who are directly influenced by the big oil companies. This is why bills in congress to allow fuel choice in america are routinely shot down. Who would benefit from a lack of fuel choices for consumers? Oil companies.

 

It's not rocket science.

[ls973800]

Since one of the sites I found trying to say how good ethanol is used a study from 1996, here is a link showing how much water has to be used to produce the ethanol. Yep, kick the political football out of the stadium and lets get back to burning just gasoline, no ethanol! JMHO!

 

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/413002/measuring-corn-ethanols-thirst-for-water/

[macbwt]

Just curious how many BTU's does it take to make a gallon of ethanol? In other words how much or type of fossil fuels does it take to make one gallon of ethanol. Using fossil fuel to make fuel OXYMORON? I have an earth inertia engine I have for sale to those that are interested.

 

A vicious circle of tax payer money that ultimately ends up being made then sold at discounted tax payer subsidized rates to overseas buyers. FACT!!

Edited May 28, 2015 by macbwt

[POWERSTROKE]

1. E85 is much better for the environment.

2. You actually end up with a surplus of food when you make ethanol. Ethanol is usually made from corn, corn which is usually fed to animals after. That corn HAS to be fermented (making ethanol) before it can be made into feed for the animals anyway. So you don't actually lose any food, you actually have a surplus of it. Check the stats, this is correct.

3. In most E-85 ready vehicles (especially Chevrolet) the timing is actually retarded in the computer calculation for the E-85 vehicles making them get worse gas mileage.

 

I could go on, but what I'm saying is you have been told a lot of lies and BS from the automobile industry who are directly influenced by the big oil companies. This is why bills in congress to allow fuel choice in america are routinely shot down. Who would benefit from a lack of fuel choices for consumers? Oil companies.

 

It's not rocket science.

 

Andrew - I agree, ethanol oxygenates gasoline for better combustion, but you have a lot to learn about livestock!

 

Corn is harvested two ways, used to be three years ago. The whole plant is chopped for silage and goes thru a fermenting stage after storage. But cattle will eat it either way. Most corn is combined for shell corn, which is used by distilleries to make enthanol, fed in limited amounts to cattle, larger amounts fed to hogs, chickens, turkeys, etc. Years ago, mid-1960's picking ear corn, cob with kernals still attached, fell out of favor, but ground ear corn makes excellent cattle feed to fatten them up making the best tasting steaks imaginable!

 

Last statistic I saw was that 37% of the US corn crop was used to make ethanol to stretch out our fuel supply a little, actually much less than 10%. A TERRIBLE WASTE of animal feed in my opinion, and MACBWT's too. The government should be subsidizing ethanol production from switch grass, seaweed, forestry byproducts, KUDZU, or waste products from sugarcane. The gov't should not be subsidizing ethanol produced from corn. Granted the distillers byproducts are still usable as livestock feed, but it's a wet product unless more energy is used to dry it, it can only be stored a day or two before it spoils, which means it's only a viable feed for large cattle feeding yards or dairies that are lucky enough to be close to a distillery. And comments I've seen on other forums by farmers, it sells REALLY CHEAP, just little more than the cost of trucking.

 

The corn fed to hogs and poultry starts with dry shelled corn kernels, and is simply ground, coarse for hogs, fine for poultry. Trace minerals and other supplements are added during the grinding process. NO FERMENTING is done to the corn in the process for these animals. There is no "surplus food/feed" due to ethanol production, just bumper yields of corn from favorable crop conditions or farmers planting every possible acre of ground possible to corn.

 

Only shell corn is exported to other countries, some may be exported as corn meal, but that starts as dry shell corn anyhow. The US used to be one of the few countries that could/would export corn, now many countries can export surplus corn. South America is a big competitor in grain and foodstuff exports, as well as The former Soviet Union.

 

Ethanol production has given the farm economy an absolutely huge boost in income the last few years, and when farmers make money, they spend it, and John Deere has had record breaking quarters and years because of their ag equipment helping farmers spend this extra income. The corn market went back to "normal" about a year or 1-1/2 years ago. Deere is now laying off, rumors are starting about farmers being in financial trouble like back in the early 1980's. Equipment sales are off over 50% in some categories compared to a year ago.

 

I agree, lot of incorrect information about "ethanol from corn" from our government. You have to check numerous sources to determine what is accurate. But the bottom line is that ethanol as a motor fuel is O-K, in engines engineered to run on it. Low BTU per gallon means poor mpg compared to gasoline. Making ethanol from corn is a total bad deal.

 

Long term, we should be looking at hydrogen fuel cells to propel our vehicles. Short term, diesel power via biodiesel makes more sense.

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

Universities have been successfully racing biodiesel-fueled cars for a while now. The biodiesel is made primarily from waste organic products and used oil discarded by fast food restaurants. Don't know about the economics of it all, but it sure is tempting to go a little BACK TO THE FUTURE with fuel

[macbwt]

I do agree with Hydrogen use as it is a great source, but issues are all over the place when you live in a world that gets 25 below zero. Hard to go anywhere with a frozen tank of water. Overall I have used E85 and went back to gasoline. I buy regular gas with no ethanol. Kwik Stars provide that option at the pumps. Another correct observation on JD also as my clients are suffering the downward trend and yes because the TAX PAYER made the corn more expensive because of politicians and now the market is back to normal. Iowa politicians are fighting like crazy to get more subsidized corn but people are learning that ethanol is just too expensive to create using corn and taxpayer support.