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Kinda sad how we don't come together and support our president these days. Republicans didn't support Obama and Democrats don't support Trump. The media seems to encourage this ridiculous behavior. It's amazing how many Americans actually hated Obama with a passion and how many now hate Trump with a passion.

Edited by fishx65

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It’s really become like a college rivalry where each side hates the other side and each side blindly protects their own. And nobody seems capable of having a rational conversation or finding a middle ground. Congress certainly isn’t. I’m fiscally conservative but socially liberal. So I get attacked from both sides depending on which issue I’m addressing. I think social media and fake news has made all this so much worse. I’m sick and tired of partisan tv shows and facebook posts. You simply can’t figure out what to trust any more.

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As your neighbor and security threat from the North, I just want to do the Canadian thing and apologize. Sorry.

 

With that out of the way, please help me with this; how is the strongest superpower in the world being "bullied" to justify this behavior?

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I didn't say it justified all the behaviors, but Obama was weak and everyone else knew it. He tried to be everybody's friend. The Iran deal was a joke that did nothing for the US or for world peace. Why do you need 21 days advance warning of an inspection if you're not doing anything wrong? North Korea backed down and has at least started dialogue with South Korea and the US. They never considered that with Obama in office. Our allies sit back and let the US do everything and pay for it with money we don't have. Trump is pushing them to do their fair share. He's addressing trade imbalances (right or wrong) that previous presidents refused to address. He's making people and countries uncomfortable but in most cases they needed to be made uncomfortable.

 

He's making changes that neither the democrats or republicans have been willing to make and that's why people voted for him.

 

I would prefer that he shut his mouth and get off twitter, but I really hope both the democrats and republicans get better candidates for the next election.

 

Given the choice of Bernie, Hillary or Trump today I'd vote for Trump - no question. We need moderate candidates on both sides that are willing to work with everyone else for the good of the country instead of just promoting their party or the party line.

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..He's making changes that neither the democrats or republicans have been willing to make and that's why people voted for him...

 

 

I don't recall any responsible group inviting the Russians to take part in our elections before. Of course now that he has said there is nothing illegal with collusion he has set the stage for his base to disregard any proof of that when it is delivered, and it surly will be.

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I didn't say it justified all the behaviors, but Obama was weak and everyone else knew it. He tried to be everybody's friend. The Iran deal was a joke that did nothing for the US or for world peace. Why do you need 21 days advance warning of an inspection if you're not doing anything wrong? North Korea backed down and has at least started dialogue with South Korea and the US. They never considered that with Obama in office. Our allies sit back and let the US do everything and pay for it with money we don't have. Trump is pushing them to do their fair share. He's addressing trade imbalances (right or wrong) that previous presidents refused to address. He's making people and countries uncomfortable but in most cases they needed to be made uncomfortable.

 

He's making changes that neither the democrats or republicans have been willing to make and that's why people voted for him.

 

I would prefer that he shut his mouth and get off twitter, but I really hope both the democrats and republicans get better candidates for the next election.

 

Given the choice of Bernie, Hillary or Trump today I'd vote for Trump - no question. We need moderate candidates on both sides that are willing to work with everyone else for the good of the country instead of just promoting their party or the party line.

 

Like you, I'm a moderate who leans toward the left socially but the right fiscally. And I agree that the country needs more moderates in the government just to get things done. There is no advantage to pushing through legislation that is too extreme because it will just get repealed with the next swing to the other side. Moderates tend to make compromises that not everyone likes but will at least live with.

 

The Iran deal was widely hailed as a good step towards peace and limiting Iran's nuclear weapons capability. The US (i.e. Trump) was the only one to later disagree with that assessment. I've read the agreement (the White House summary is here: https://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2015/04/240170.htm)and there is no mention of a 21-day notice for inspections so I don't know where you heard that.

 

North Korea has not backed down... in fact, there is evidence that they have resumed their missile development. I would not blame Trump for that - he got played by North Korea just like many other diplomats have been in the past. But it certainly isn't an accomplishment.

 

Actually, if you consider "accomplishments" as making good things happen then Trump has very few of significance. He has appointed a conservative Justice and looks to appoint another shortly. He has made a tax cut (whether it's good or too much for the country to afford is yet to be seen but it would still be an accomplishment). He has cut many regulations which are costly to business although, again, he probably went too far in reducing protections for consumers and the environment.

 

But he has decimated health care - when he couldn't get it repealed he just knocked the funding out from under it. Obama Care certainly wasn't perfect but it was a start and they should have concentrated on fixing it rather than killing it merely because it was Obama's primary accomplishment (there seems to be this irrational hatred of Obama from the right). He pulled out of the Paris accord for basically the same reason considering it was a non-binding agreement anyway. It's significant that the US is now the only country in the entire world (not just the UN) that isn't part of the Paris Accord - an agreement that was aimed at reducing pollution to combat climate change. It's also significant that all of the other countries (along with many state and local governments in the US) will still be going with the agreement. He has separated children from their families and failed to reunite them despite court orders. He seems to treat trade agreements as things that can be won. They're agreements - everybody involved should gain some and lose some in order to compromise. Trade imbalance is not evil, it's just a fact of globalization. And vilifying the free press should be horrifying to every citizen - it's the kind of thing autocrats and dictators do.

 

This is why I asked the question "why would anyone continue to support this president?" Any Republican president would have appointed conservative Justices and probably made a tax cut (every Republican president since the '80s has done so), so why is there such a following for this one? I have my own theories but I'd like to find out from his supporters.

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I think Trump fanatics (as opposed to people like me who can't stand the man but dislike the alternatives even more) are Conservatives who resonate with build a wall, kill obamacare, reduced business regulation, lower business taxes, reduced global welfare and preserve american jobs. Other conservative candidates did not and do not support these ideas at all or at least not to the extent Trump does. And the impression is that Trump does not fit the typical politician profile where they follow the party line, cater to special interest groups and only care about getting re-elected because it's their livelihood.

 

The Russia thing to me doesn't look good, but at this point all I've seen is that Russia put out the same propaganda about the Democrats that all the other Conservatives were putting out there already, so I don't see how that had any affect on the election. Now if they were actually hacking and changing ballots that would be completely different but I haven't seen anything that suggests that.

 

 

This talks about the inspection delays in the original Iran deal. Only some facilities were monitored in real time.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/sep/08/politifact-sheet-6-things-know-about-iran-nuclear-/

 

All that deal would have done is make it a little more difficult for Iran to create a bomb. Why would Iran need to keep the ability to create a bomb in 12 months instead of 2 months if they really had no plans to make a bomb? I understand it's a case of "it's better than nothing" but to me it's like telling a convicted felon you can still carry a gun but it has to be a small one and you can only have 2 bullets.

 

 

Personally I think this "all or nothing" attitude from both sides has created chaos. The answer to the immigration problem is not build a wall and keep everybody out. Nor is it open the border and let everybody in with free health care. But until we get some moderates willing to compromise we won't get a viable solution.

To me Trump should be a signal to Republicans and Democrats alike that they need to find more moderate and better candidates going forward including Congress. Rand Paul is the only one I've heard that makes any sense.

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Okay, so the 24 days isn't in the agreement - it's an estimate of how long it could take to get permission to inspect a location that was not known to be a nuclear facility at the time of the agreement. As it says in the article, no sovereign nation would give in to inspections by foreigners of areas beyond the original agreement without red tape. The US certainly wouldn't do so if the roles were reversed. And it's not like they could build a bomb at a new location in 24 days. The point being that the agreement was the best we had and dropping out wasn't going to make it any better - especially since the other signatories are going ahead with it.

 

Believe me, I do appreciate this discussion and the way it hasn't become confrontational.

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Personally I think this "all or nothing" attitude from both sides has created chaos. The answer to the immigration problem is not build a wall and keep everybody out. Nor is it open the border and let everybody in with free health care. But until we get some moderates willing to compromise we won't get a viable solution.

To me Trump should be a signal to Republicans and Democrats alike that they need to find more moderate and better candidates going forward including Congress. Rand Paul is the only one I've heard that makes any sense.

 

 

I totally disagree. There is no middle. The left wants open borders and socialism as their ultimate end goals. Those things are not compatible with the American way of life. We are literally in a struggle for the very existence of western culture right now. Liberals promote acceptance of Sharia law and the importation of mass amount of Muslims, both of which openly call for the downfall of all non-Muslims.

 

No, right now, the Republicans need to make a stand against the immorality and foreign invaders that the democrats are promoting. Moderating towards the liberal agenda is completely insane. The silent majority wants a moral country that is not full of foreign invaders who both hate you and want you dead.

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Well now... there's a perfect example of the xenophobic attitudes and conspiracy theories that have taken over American politics. Perhaps we should table this discussion until more reasonable minds can prevail.

 

BTW, Xenophobia means "an intense or irrational dislike or fear of strangers or foreigners" (it often has to be defined for those who suffer from it). :whistling:

Edited by TheWizard

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It's not irrational to fear people who are taught from childhood that you are an infidel who should die, is it?

 

As far as your conspiracy thoughts- please, name ONE thing I posted that isn't 100% true. If you don't think they want open borders, I can prove that's false- they do want open borders. If you don't think they want the USA to become a socialist state, again, you are wrong. The left is currently pushing "democratic socialism", cause, you know that's different socialism and it'll work this time.

 

Sorry dude, but I 'm not bending to the left's loony demands and ideas. Not. One. Bit. I do not want the politicians I elect to give into any of that crap either. I 100% reject globlism and the left elitist attitude.

Edited by IWRBB

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I will not get drawn into that debate because it is silly by it's very nature. Not all immigrants are terrorists (or even Muslim)... I haven't seen a lot of people from south of the border who want to "kill the infidels" - they just want a chance at a better life. And using a generic "they" to describe a large group of varied people (like immigrants or liberals or Democrats or even Republicans) is the very heart of conspiracy theories - "they're" out to get you. There are just as many nut cases on the far right as there are on the far left and neither of them should ever be elected to public office. Just one of your falsehoods is "there is no middle". That's patently untrue - most of the reasonable people in this country tend toward the middle whether they lean somewhat to the right or somewhat to the left.

 

Either you don't really believe what you're saying which makes you a provocateur or you do believe it which makes you the antithesis of a reasonable person.

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It's not irrational to fear people who are taught from childhood that you are an infidel who should die, is it?

 

As far as your conspiracy thoughts- please, name ONE thing I posted that isn't 100% true. If you don't think they want open borders, I can prove that's false- they do want open borders. If you don't think they want the USA to become a socialist state, again, you are wrong. The left is currently pushing "democratic socialism", cause, you know that's different socialism and it'll work this time.

 

Sorry dude, but I 'm not bending to the left's loony demands and ideas. Not. One. Bit. I do not want the politicians I elect to give into any of that crap either. I 100% reject globlism and the left elitist attitude.

 

 

I guarantee you the average democrat doesn't want completely open borders, Sharia law or 100% socialism. Only the fringe. Painting ALL democrats that way is not only unfair but it causes a backlash reaction where even reasonable liberals start to paint all conservatives the opposite way.

 

If I stand up for gay rights I'm lambasted as a far left liberal by conservatives. If I call for fiscal responsibility and jobs creation and smaller government with less government spending the liberals lambaste me as a far right conservative.

 

Doing this will get us absolutely nowhere. We need to come together and find common ground. This mentality of one side has to win is what's killing us.

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you do believe it which makes you the antithesis of a reasonable person.

 

Are we the only reasonable people left?

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Are we the only reasonable people left?

 

I certainly hope not. Like you, I think we need more moderates rather than fewer. Maybe the voters who identify themselves as independent might be the ones we're trying to find. I think moderates tend to be less outspoken than those at either end of the spectrum so perhaps we just haven't heard from them. It's unfortunate that the closed primaries in most states seem to produce candidates for the general election who are more extreme leaving fewer moderate candidates to elect.

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I certainly hope not. Like you, I think we need more moderates rather than fewer. Maybe the voters who identify themselves as independent might be the ones we're trying to find. I think moderates tend to be less outspoken than those at either end of the spectrum so perhaps we just haven't heard from them. It's unfortunate that the closed primaries in most states seem to produce candidates for the general election who are more extreme leaving fewer moderate candidates to elect.

The 2 party primary system has been a pet peeve of mine for years. Do away with it. If there are 6 democrats and 5 republicans who qualify and want to run let them. If nobody gets more than 50% of the vote have a runoff between the top 3 regardless of party.

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I like the way that this thread has been polite. The only reason I'm chiming is is because of 2 things in the news today.

 

The first is to the OP's point. The Wall Street Journal has an article today saying that Alcoa Aluminum is asking the government to give Canada and other countries exemptions from the tariffs. I never knew that Alcoa imports 20% of the aluminum it uses from outside the US. For real.

 

 

Alcoa Requests Exemption from Aluminum Tariff Largest U.S. producer says it needs aluminum from Canada to fill can orders

“Even if all the curtailed smelting capacity in the U.S. was back online and producing metal, the United States would still need to import the majority of its aluminum,” said Tim Reyes, president of Alcoa’s aluminum business.

The aluminum tariff has snarled production of aluminum parts and products in recent months because most of the aluminum consumed by U.S. manufacturers is imported or remelted scrap.

Wow. So, yes, I would expect vehicle prices to go up, especially the F series trucks and autos with aluminum in them. (Everybody)

 

Sorry for no link, you have to be a WSJ subscriber to access.

 

The second thing in today's news is that Trump's lawyers are recommending that he not talk to Special Prosecutor Mueller.

 

Why? Everyone knows that if you have not committed a crime you should not be afraid to answer law enforcement questions. I'm not.

 

Now I completely believe in the 5th Amendment. People should not be forced to incriminate themselves. But I've seen the videos of Trump and General Flynn both saying that usually only guilty people plead the 5th. Do they no longer believe that?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMyh7ko9L2g

 

What in the world did Trump do that he is afraid to discuss with law enforcement??

 

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Thanks All Hat, back on topic! So again, how much is all of this going to add to the price of a new Edge, and is Ford going to eat it or will we? (As if there is any doubt)

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So again, how much is all of this going to add to the price of a new Edge, and is Ford going to eat it or will we?

 

Well, I can only give you my opinion on that , and it is a definite "who knows", LOL.

 

I believe that the only certainty is that if these tariff wars continue, the price increase on vehicles will be very noticeable, and will vary greatly with the vehicle.

 

Since the Edge is made in Canada, well, this might be what you can look forward to. Do the math, and then think about the last part of your quote.

 

 

Trump and his administration have repeatedly threatened Canada with the possibility of imposing a 25 per cent tariff on cars imported from Canada, along with 10 per cent tariff on auto parts after deciding against exempting Canada from hefty tariffs on steel and aluminum since June.

 

https://money.cnn.com/2018/07/02/news/companies/auto-tariffs/index.html

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2018/07/03/car-prices-trump-auto-tariffs/745342002/

 

 

 

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If there are any price increases, they won't hit specific vehicles, they will be spread across an entire manufacturers fleet. Just like delivery charges, you get the same charge if you live across the street from the plant or across the country. Ford and most of the other major OEMs balance production globally to hedge against currency and tariff fluctuations. Ford produces just about as many vehicles in Canada as it sells in Canada and exports about as many vehicles from Canada to the US as it exports from the US to Canada, so they will just balance everything out. I think Ford also has hedges against commodity price increases like aluminum, so you won't really see the true impact of the tariffs straight to the sticker price of the vehicles.

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Here we go again...

 

This narcissistic president has once again put his own personal animosities ahead of the office with his response to the death of John McCain. Putting the White House flags back to full height and refusing to acknowledge the contributions of an icon of American politics is just petty and unworthy of anyone in the oval office.

 

There were several times I disagreed with John McCain but I never once doubted his patriotism or dedication to the political process. He would have made an excellent president when he ran the second time in 2008 but the timing was all wrong. People were sick of the war, George W Bush, and by extension the Republican party; Obama was a very strong candidate who was intelligent, very well spoken, and represented change; and the choice of Sarah Palin as a running mate turned out to be a complete disaster. But he understood that cooperation, respect and compromise are important in politics (and life in general) - something the current president simply can't grasp because he's so wrapped up in trying to get praise for himself.

 

So we're back to why do people support this sociopath in the oval office? I understand supporting conservative policies, I understand supporting the Republican party (although it's not the party it once was), I even understand supporting the office of the president, but I can't understand personal support of a man who in other circumstances wouldn't surprise me to be the suspect in a mass shooting. (BTW, I do not use the term "sociopath" lightly - look up the definition and you'll see that Trump fits it with room to spare... characteristics include a persistent disregard for right and wrong, a tendency to lie and manipulate others, a lack of empathy and remorse, emotional volatility, an inflated ego, and engaging in impulsive and irresponsible behavior.)

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I think Ford also has hedges against commodity price increases like aluminum, so you won't really see the true impact of the tariffs straight to the sticker price of the vehicles.

 

And here we go. If anyone thinks that tariffs on aluminum and steel won't affect prices, then you have to believe that Ford is going to eat the material price increases it predicts.

 

Don't take my word for it, see what the CEO of Ford says, today.

 

 

“The metals tariffs took about $1 billion in profit from us -- and the irony is we source most of that in the U.S. today anyways,” Hackett said in an interview on Bloomberg Television. “If it goes on longer, there will be more damage.”

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-26/ford-ceo-says-trump-s-metals-tariffs-took-1-billion-in-profits

 

Edit: Please listen to the whole video, to hear how Lincoln prices have gone up 25% in China, and what that did in Kentucky.

Edited by All Hat No Cattle

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It's a war people. The end goal is not tariffs. The end goal is for the US to have fair trade with it's trading partners. We'v been taken advantage of by everyone for decades and that shit is over. Everyone else in the world has been doing everything in their power to protect their country's economies and their industries- but now it's a big problem when the US finally says enough of this BS and does the same? It's going to take some short term pain for long term gains. The only real negotiating tactic is tariffs. Asking nicely WILL NOT get it done.

 

Did you know China ALREADY had a 25% tariff on Lincoln vehicles prior to any new tariffs? Didn't seem to bother anyone then, well, except for Trump who thinks that's unfair since we don't charge anyone 25% to bring in a car. Quit drinking in the kool-aid the MSM is feeding you on a daily basis. The new tariffs are small battles in a larger war. Some people will lose out in particular battles, it's how it goes when you are fighting a war. In the end- trade IS everything. Nobody can threaten the US militarily, the only thing that can bring us down is to destroy the US economy. The largest, most productive and innovative economy anywhere in the world, by far. We are the 800 lb gorilla in the room, but we've been acting like a damn scared bunny rabbit for the last 50 years. Trump is flexing the muscles, and everyone else is scared. They are smart to be scared too- he is there to win for the American people not push a sleezy globalist agenda like our past 5 presidents. Trump is fighting for you, your kids, and their future- whether you accept it or not.

 

 

Wizard: Obama committed crimes throughout his 8 years. He illegally spied on a political opponent using lies to FISA judges and the full spying capabilities of 4 of our allies. Even with all that, they still couldn't push the crooked side of beef over the finish line. It's all going to come out- the FBI, DOJ, DNC, etc were all in on the fix. Don't even get me going on his slush fund- the one that pays for all the paid protesters.

 

Lastly, you talk a lot of shit about him, but Trump is clearly way smarter than you. He's richer, more successful, and more famous. He also was elected President of the United States- the most powerful person in the world. You think a stupid person can do that? Hillary couldn't do it- even with a rigged election. Why don't you give him a chance? The US economy is better than it's ever been in my 40+ years on this planet- and it's not a continuation of a trend line.

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Obama committed crimes throughout his 8 years. He illegally spied on a political opponent using lies to FISA judges and the full spying capabilities of 4 of our allies. Even with all that, they still couldn't push the crooked side of beef over the finish line. It's all going to come out- the FBI, DOJ, DNC, etc were all in on the fix. Don't even get me going on his slush fund- the one that pays for all the paid protesters.

 

Lastly, you talk a lot of shit about him, but Trump is clearly way smarter than you. He's richer, more successful, and more famous. He also was elected President of the United States- the most powerful person in the world. You think a stupid person can do that? Hillary couldn't do it- even with a rigged election. Why don't you give him a chance? The US economy is better than it's ever been in my 40+ years on this planet- and it's not a continuation of a trend line.

I did not think it was possible to out-Fox FOX (Fake News) talking points but you managed to do just that in two paragraphs. Congratulations! How about doing some home work and get factual data to back up your weird world view. Meanwhile the whole world is laughing at this blow hard potus. (Lower case intended)

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Wizard: Obama committed crimes throughout his 8 years. He illegally spied on a political opponent using lies to FISA judges and the full spying capabilities of 4 of our allies. Even with all that, they still couldn't push the crooked side of beef over the finish line. It's all going to come out- the FBI, DOJ, DNC, etc were all in on the fix. Don't even get me going on his slush fund- the one that pays for all the paid protesters.

 

Lastly, you talk a lot of shit about him, but Trump is clearly way smarter than you. He's richer, more successful, and more famous. He also was elected President of the United States- the most powerful person in the world. You think a stupid person can do that? Hillary couldn't do it- even with a rigged election. Why don't you give him a chance? The US economy is better than it's ever been in my 40+ years on this planet- and it's not a continuation of a trend line.

 

Actually, I don't think I ever called Trump stupid... a narcissistic, immoral, sociopath yes, but not necessarily stupid. He's certainly no genius either but neither was George W Bush and he managed to be president for eight years without tearing the country apart. There are lots of people who are smarter than Trump and there have been many famous and successful sociopaths as well... Hitler comes to mind.

 

But I really don't need to spend time debating foolish conspiracy theories with you. You might be better going back to Alex Jones and Infowars where your ideas originate (oh wait... he's been cut off from almost all social media and is being sued for his outrageous falsehoods - maybe that's not such a good idea). Well, Fox news might be the next best thing if Infowars isn't available - they have no sense of right and wrong over there either.

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