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On 3/29/2019 at 9:05 AM, akirby said:

This debate is silly.  It’s always cheaper to buy a used vehicle - the older it is the cheaper it is.  It’s also more worn out, more expensive to fix, has outdated electronics, little or no warranty, can be harder to get parts, etc.

 

It all depends on what is more important to you.  If you prefer driving newer vehicles and you can afford it then great.

If you prefer to buy older ones to save money, great.

 

Neither position is wrong.

 

One thing which that equation leaves out is the value placed on life, which substantial differences in safety features (and IIHS + NHTSA ratings) represent; in that regard, I'm not being the least bit "silly". I don't merely "prefer" driving newer vehicles, nor does buying older ones necessarily save worthwhile money--after the money and time spent on maintenance/repairs.

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13 hours ago, Fingernip said:

I completely disagree. A 30 year old car also can’t access the internet while my 2019 has built in WiFi. A 30 year old computer is as capable as a 30 year old car. It can do math and spreadsheets fine. But it won’t run a modern game or cad software just as a 30 year old car won’t have sync3, fordpass, Apple car play and so on. It also won’t reach anywhere near the fuel efficiency or performance of a modern computer/car. They both serve the same purpose but progression has made one far superior. 

 

Thank you very much.

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1 hour ago, TomCinMI said:

 

One thing which that equation leaves out is the value placed on life, which substantial differences in safety features (and IIHS + NHTSA ratings) represent; in that regard, I'm not being the least bit "silly". I don't merely "prefer" driving newer vehicles, nor does buying older ones necessarily save worthwhile money--after the money and time spent on maintenance/repairs.

 

I think you’re overstating the safety benefit, statistically speaking.  You don’t need to justify your decision to buy new unless you’re just trying to justify it to yourself.

 

In the end it comes down to money and how much you’re willing to spend (or not spend).  Neither position is wrong.

 

Can we just leave it at that and move on?

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16 minutes ago, akirby said:

 

I think you’re overstating the safety benefit, statistically speaking.  You don’t need to justify your decision to buy new unless you’re just trying to justify it to yourself.

 

In the end it comes down to money and how much you’re willing to spend (or not spend).  Neither position is wrong.

 

Can we just leave it at that and move on?

 

Talk statistics to someone who's maimed for life in an accident.

 

Can we just leave it at that and move on?

Edited by TomCinMI

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Whatever makes you feel better.

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39 minutes ago, akirby said:

Whatever makes you feel better.

 

For me, it's just whatever is the truth.

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2 hours ago, TomCinMI said:

 

For me, it's just whatever is the truth.

So what made you get an Edge ST? I'm curious, why would someone so worried about safety buy a performance vehicle, specially one that has not even been tested by IIHS.

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5 hours ago, TomCinMI said:

 

For me, it's just whatever is the truth.

 

Using your logic you could have bought a different vehicle that’s even safer with better crash scores and a higher IIHS safety rating if you think it’s really that important.

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10 minutes ago, akirby said:

 

Using your logic you could have bought a different vehicle that’s even safer with better crash scores and a higher IIHS safety rating if you think it’s really that important.

This thread is totally devoid of logic at this point. But it still has a modicum entertainment value.

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3 hours ago, Nick Halstead said:

So what made you get an Edge ST? I'm curious, why would someone so worried about safety buy a performance vehicle, specially one that has not even been tested by IIHS.

 

For starters, my being very familiar with the vehicle from owning the 2016; also because the 6-cylinder is better than the I-4 that I had for overtaking, as well as more attractive to a lot of people in resale; the availability of Co-Pilot360 Assist+, to inc. AEB; I was fine with what I could, & did, get in trade for the 2016 at that point (I did not at all roll over on what it was worth); &, since you bring up IIHS, at least largely the same structural vehicle had already been very well rated by both it & NHTSA. I may be wrong, but isn't the body of the 2019 in the aluminum alloy, which is tougher than the non-aluminum 2016? I've notice that the doors seem lighter to close & "land" with less of the solid "thunk" which Consumer Reports appreciated in '16. I believe you're the one who brought up, correctly, that there are often first-year woes in regard to new generations/heavy refreshes of a vehicle; I didn't view the 2019 as much of a concern in that regard, &, although the transmission needs the expected optimizing, I did, & still do, view this vehicle as retaining value well in Michigan. Just because a vehicle has a performance profile, that doesn't mean its first owner has to be someone inclined to flog/thrash it. Of course, safety & an appreciation for performance are not mutually exclusive. Why do racers wear helmets, harnesses, etc., etc., etc.? Why is a car person such as you even asking me essentially about safety vs. performance?

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Seems I touched a nerve in TomCinMi, he's a bit off the rails. Justifying a $50k purchase that's going to be worth $10k in 10 years isn't easy it seems...

Drove my beautiful, reliable, comfy 2010 Edge today, didn't die or nothin - it was a beautiful thing. 

Edited by erikrichard

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1 hour ago, akirby said:

 

Using your logic you could have bought a different vehicle that’s even safer with better crash scores and a higher IIHS safety rating if you think it’s really that important.

 

Uh, no. I've never claimed that ultra-uber-super-duper safety is the be-all & end-all with me. As a pretty comprehensive response to what you just said, read my reply to Nick Halstead, immediately above. And my profile describes, among other things, that I rule out non-union-made vehicles.

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9 minutes ago, erikrichard said:

Seems I touched a nerve in TomCinMi, he's a bit off the rails. Justifying a $50k purchase that's going to be worth $10k in 10 years isn't easy it seems...

Drove my beautiful, reliable, comfy 2010 Edge today, didn't die or nothin - it was a beautiful thing. 

 

You're the one who's extremely touchy, having started off with snarky. I, OTOH, have just been laying down facts; begin to handle them like a grownup, or not.

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3 hours ago, TomCinMI said:

Why is a car person such as you even asking me essentially about safety vs. performance?


I was just curious cause every post by you seems to be about maintain resale value and safety concerns.

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Who buys a mass produced Ford for resale value?  Or most cars for that matter?  The depreciate before your done signing the paperwork.  Heck I lease mine since I want a new ride every three years and like a warranty just in case something bad happens.  Which is good in this case since I will only have to put up with the absolute worst gas mileage of any vehicle I have ever owned.  And I have driven some old vehicle that I only paid a few hundred dollars for that got better gas mileage than this POS. Then add the random trans stuff.  Wow. 

Edited by jamie1073

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8 hours ago, Nick Halstead said:


I was just curious cause every post by you seems to be about maintain resale value and safety concerns.

 

My posts have been about numerous aspects of the discussion, and obviously the relationship between safety & performance is not an either/or thing; at least it has sure always been obvious to me.

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4 hours ago, jamie1073 said:

Who buys a mass produced Ford for resale value?  Or most cars for that matter?  The depreciate before your done signing the paperwork.  Heck I lease mine since I want a new ride every three years and like a warranty just in case something bad happens.  Which is good in this case since I will only have to put up with the absolute worst gas mileage of any vehicle I have ever owned.  And I have driven some old vehicle that I only paid a few hundred dollars for that got better gas mileage than this POS. Then add the random trans stuff.  Wow. 

 

Well, then expect a lot of "incoming" from erikrichard, because you've not only been "crazy enough" to acquire a new vehicle, but you've done so with zero equity & zero potential for retained value, if it keeps value relatively well. Leasing is no less of a crap shoot than buying, with lease payments based on guesstimated depreciation &, therefore, guesstimated residual value at end of lease. Naturally resale value is always a relative thing, relatively good or relatively bad, & factors which play into it can be weighed in advance, wisely or not so wisely. Main thing is where an owner plans to re-market. Here in southeast Michigan, ya better believe that a midsize SUV that's union-made by a U.S.-based manufacturer, with 6 cylinders, AWD & some towing capability (let alone all of the Edge's other features), will resell way better than lots of other rides. I, too, have the new-vehicle warranties--&, while I'd never think of buying a third-party extended warranty, if I chose to hang onto a vehicle, I'd certainly consider a negotiated Ford Protect manufacturer's extended warranty, since the price of those are marked up by a dealer just as are vehicles ... so they can be negotiated down; those warranties are also transferable. Your questions, "Who buys a mass produced Ford for resale value?  Or most cars for that matter?" could just as easily be turned around: Who leases any car with the expectation that he/she will come out in relatively good shape at the end of the lease period? One plays this stuff relatively smart--or relatively not so smart.

 

Your fuel economy/lack thereof, as another poster noted, is an outlier which needs to be addressed, as will be optimization of the trans. Again, my fuel economy is at least as billed by the EPA, especially since the ST is still breaking in. And on a nearby thread, one of us has said that there's already a Power-train Control Module update which is identified when a diagnostic scan is run, & which has much improved shifting.

Edited by TomCinMI
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Ok, to get back to how this thread was started.  Some dealers are more in tune to Ford releasing updates to address issue that have been reported.  I have asked my dealer and without even looking they say nope, nothing on the trans, but they have heard of other customers reporting the same concerns.  Has anyone asked their dealer to follow up with Ford to see?  My dealer is not really interested in doing that, their approach is, if needed Ford will do something. 

 

Yes i I could go to a different dealer, but really do not want to travel an extra hour to ask that question, which I feel is better asked in person.

Thanks

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1 hour ago, Sage said:

Ok, to get back to how this thread was started.  Some dealers are more in tune to Ford releasing updates to address issue that have been reported.  I have asked my dealer and without even looking they say nope, nothing on the trans, but they have heard of other customers reporting the same concerns.  Has anyone asked their dealer to follow up with Ford to see?  My dealer is not really interested in doing that, their approach is, if needed Ford will do something. 

 

Yes i I could go to a different dealer, but really do not want to travel an extra hour to ask that question, which I feel is better asked in person.

Thanks

 

I recommend that we all go to https://www.ford.com/help/contact/ ; voice our concerns; direct them to this forum discussion ( https://www.fordedgeforum.com/topic/26540-so-is-all-the-youtube-videos-true/ ); tell them we expect a response; and hold them to it. I'm about to do that.

 

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"Well, then expect a lot of "incoming" from erikrichard, because you've not only been "crazy enough" to acquire a new vehicle, but you've done so with zero equity & zero potential for retained value, if it keeps value relatively well."

 

Why would I respond to Jamie? he's not the one whining about depreciation, blaming poor reviewers for deeper depreciation losses (silly idea, the value of your 2019 is going to drop like a rock regardless of reviews) and justifying losing 30-40% of the value in 3 years with a bunch of safety features that have a small chances of ever actually making a difference in a severe crash, that is a low % chance of happening in the first place?

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5 minutes ago, erikrichard said:

"Well, then expect a lot of "incoming" from erikrichard, because you've not only been "crazy enough" to acquire a new vehicle, but you've done so with zero equity & zero potential for retained value, if it keeps value relatively well."

 

Why would I respond to Jamie? he's not the one whining about depreciation, blaming poor reviewers for deeper depreciation losses (silly idea, the value of your 2019 is going to drop like a rock regardless of reviews) and justifying losing 30-40% of the value in 3 years with a bunch of safety features that have a small chances of ever actually making a difference in a severe crash, that is a low % chance of happening in the first place?

The safety features were not a part of my reasoning in the purchase but i absolutely recognize them as a great improvement over my gen 1.5. Automatic braking can and will likely avoid an accident (severe or minor) in the lifetime of the vehicle. The accident avoidance feature (automatic steering) can absolutely be a great feature in the right conditions. The improved AWD system makes my gen 1.5 system look down right silly when considering snow/ice driving. Sure they both do the same task as an iphone 3 is functionally as capable as an iPhoneXs when it comes to its primary purpose but to someone who relies on a phone/car as a tool for daily life and has any need to improve productivity/safety/security newer is generally better. You don't really miss the new features until you have them but once you have them they become indispensable. 

Depreciation exists in a used car too. Unless you are willing to buy a 10+ year old car that has fully depreciated you will take several milestone equity hits. A 10+ year old car is pretty close to the end of its intended lifespan and its reliability and safety would be in question. It also doesn't provide the option of keeping it another 10 years unless you are willing to ignore the point of beyond economical repair. 

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I will say the accident avoidance feature works very well.  I did have a few choice words(to myself) for the driver that pulled out in front of me when on a 4 lane city road. Fortunate for me, the middle lane was clear and I could feel that feature working, very well I might add.

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6 hours ago, Fingernip said:

The safety features were not a part of my reasoning in the purchase but i absolutely recognize them as a great improvement over my gen 1.5. Automatic braking can and will likely avoid an accident (severe or minor) in the lifetime of the vehicle. The accident avoidance feature (automatic steering) can absolutely be a great feature in the right conditions. The improved AWD system makes my gen 1.5 system look down right silly when considering snow/ice driving. Sure they both do the same task as an iphone 3 is functionally as capable as an iPhoneXs when it comes to its primary purpose but to someone who relies on a phone/car as a tool for daily life and has any need to improve productivity/safety/security newer is generally better. You don't really miss the new features until you have them but once you have them they become indispensable. 

Depreciation exists in a used car too. Unless you are willing to buy a 10+ year old car that has fully depreciated you will take several milestone equity hits. A 10+ year old car is pretty close to the end of its intended lifespan and its reliability and safety would be in question. It also doesn't provide the option of keeping it another 10 years unless you are willing to ignore the point of beyond economical repair. 

 

It totally depends on how that 10 year old vehicle was treated. A garaged and well maintained vehicle treated with care is a completely different thing than one that has been kept outside and treated like crap. I've seen vehicles with 200k that look better than vehicles with 20k. As in all things, the answer is "it depends."

I will say that vehicles just keep getting better and better. A 2010 vehicle driven today is going to be a WAY better 1990 vehicle driven in 2000, in general. I'm pretty blown away by advances in vehicle technology, but the depreciation game is as extreme as the msrp climb of new vehicles.

Edited by erikrichard

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The facts are simple.   Buying a new vehicle every 3 years (whether you purchase or lease) is THE most expensive option.  Always.

In return you get the latest gadgets and safety tech and a full warranty.

 

Buying a used vehicle and keeping it as long as possible is always the cheapest.   But you have to do more maintenance and more repairs and you miss some newer technology.

 

Which one is best is an individual decision based on what’s important to you.  There is no right or wrong here.

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On 4/1/2019 at 11:32 AM, erikrichard said:

"Well, then expect a lot of "incoming" from erikrichard, because you've not only been "crazy enough" to acquire a new vehicle, but you've done so with zero equity & zero potential for retained value, if it keeps value relatively well."

 

Why would I respond to Jamie? he's not the one whining about depreciation, blaming poor reviewers for deeper depreciation losses (silly idea, the value of your 2019 is going to drop like a rock regardless of reviews) and justifying losing 30-40% of the value in 3 years with a bunch of safety features that have a small chances of ever actually making a difference in a severe crash, that is a low % chance of happening in the first place?

 

On top of the points which Fingernip & Sage have added in reply to you, ... You would respond to Jamie if you kept playing your one-note concert about depreciation vs. driving a very old, safety-deficient vehicle, but at least had some consistency; leasing doesn't automatically make any more sense than purchasing, & very well can make less sense, for the factual reasons I laid out. You've been light on facts & heavy on snark from the beginning. At this point, you obviously simply refuse to acknowledge that just one of these many safety features (say AEB or Evasive Steering Assist) only needs to kick in once to make the 2019 a complete bargain over a totaled 2010 Edge--let alone what happens to the latter's occupants; now there's some "depreciation" for ya (called "2010-style depreciation, *BOOM*, big time"). You just want to argue & put-down, but ought to allow the thread to get back to its original topic. Anything further you say on your pet issue will be met by silence from me.

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