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akirby

2021 Edge Order Guide

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Looks like they still have the same old gauge cluster 🙄

 

image.thumb.png.53f4c5e6a91a2e32007c5f606562439e.png

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48 minutes ago, akirby said:

More decontenting, some new features.   12" screen and sync 4.    ST trans changes to 7 speed.

 

2021 Edge Order Guide.pdf

I wonder why only the ST got a 7 speed... I'm sure it has something to do with performance, but I obviously have no additional insight on it

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1 minute ago, dolsen said:

I wonder why only the ST got a 7 speed... I'm sure it has something to do with performance, but I obviously have no additional insight on it


There were complaints about two of the gears (2 & 3?) being too close together.  Maybe they just programmed it to skip a gear.

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25 minutes ago, akirby said:


There were complaints about two of the gears (2 & 3?) being too close together.  Maybe they just programmed it to skip a gear.

Maybe, but I imagine the cost savings of removing a gear (by not purchasing an 8th forward gear, and assembling one less gear into the assembly) and the (minimal) weight savings would probably be enough to actually re-engineer the gear box. Plus the added performance benefit of having a gear with an optimal ratio in between gears 2 and 3 I think would be of greater benefit than simply choosing one over the other.

 

Again, I have no insight, but using my engineering/accounting brain cells, for whatever that's worth, that's how I see it

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1 hour ago, dolsen said:

I wonder why only the ST got a 7 speed... I'm sure it has something to do with performance, but I obviously have no additional insight on it

 

Because the 2.0L 8 speed is shared with Chev but with 1 gear already removed, the final OD gear. You can likely only remove so many gears from initial design.

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I understand that the 8 and 10 speed trans were both co developed with GM (GM having a 9 speed FWD, the trans aren't really shared, they just happened to be developed together, which isn't necessarily the same thing). But I am asking why the 7 speed is only being used in the ST and not the other edge trim levels. Is the 7 speed going into any other Ford applications at all? or just the edge ST?

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19 minutes ago, dolsen said:

I understand that the 8 and 10 speed trans were both co developed with GM (GM having a 9 speed FWD, the trans aren't really shared, they just happened to be developed together, which isn't necessarily the same thing). But I am asking why the 7 speed is only being used in the ST and not the other edge trim levels. Is the 7 speed going into any other Ford applications at all? or just the edge ST?

 

There are 2 different 8 speed FWD trannies currently.   The 2.0LEB uses the new GM joint design 8F35.   It's designed for lower torque applications.    For the ST they took the 6F57 and added 2 gears creating the 8F57.   It's a different transmission.   The 8F57 is the one that was changed to (presumably) a 7F57.  It's not a totally new tranny just a modified 8F57 either by removing a gear or just changing the software.

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3 minutes ago, akirby said:

 

There are 2 different 8 speed FWD trannies currently.   The 2.0LEB uses the new GM joint design 8F35.   It's designed for lower torque applications.    For the ST they took the 6F57 and added 2 gears creating the 8F57.   It's a different transmission.   The 8F57 is the one that was changed to (presumably) a 7F57.  It's not a totally new tranny just a modified 8F57 either by removing a gear or just changing the software.

Ok, so after just a hair of research, it appears that is in fact correct. This new 8 speed is based off of the newly co-developed transmission, but the ST is a carryover from the previous (also co-developed between GM and Ford, just from 2002 instead of 2016/17) 6 speed. That is very odd to me that they would upgrade in "pieces" like that.

 

It's still odd and, while there is a good theory, I'm still curious as to the actual reason why and how this was done.

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58 minutes ago, dolsen said:

Ok, so after just a hair of research, it appears that is in fact correct. This new 8 speed is based off of the newly co-developed transmission, but the ST is a carryover from the previous (also co-developed between GM and Ford, just from 2002 instead of 2016/17) 6 speed. That is very odd to me that they would upgrade in "pieces" like that.

 

It's still odd and, while there is a good theory, I'm still curious as to the actual reason why and how this was done.

Its simply due to the peak torque handling of each design. The new GM trans cant take the 2.7L torque while the older 6F55 was plenty capable. 

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49 minutes ago, Fingernip said:

Its simply due to the peak torque handling of each design. The new GM trans cant take the 2.7L torque while the older 6F55 was plenty capable. 

Are you certain it wasn't due to size, cost, logistics, manufacturing or other issues? Sometimes it even has to do with manpower (not wanting to cut or create other jobs). I'm thankful for all of the theories, because it definitely helps you think. But so far there are no answers to my question, just lots of speculation. I was really hoping for some definitive information, which I have been unable to find through a google search.

 

Also, you misinterpreted my post. I wasn't asking why two different transmissions were used. I was asking why the one gear was dropped from the ST to make it a 7 speed instead of an 8 speed, and how it was done (tuning, physically removing gears, or something else).

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WOW they got rid of the stupid non working kick gate.

"Power Lif tgate replaced Hands-Free Foot Activ ated Lif tgate on STLine and standard on ST (400A)"

New owners wont know the joys of standing in the rain with arms full of groceries bashing your shin against the hitch trying in vein to get it to open. 

 

Also no more media bin door????? the door to the compartment with wireless charger?

 

No more panoramic roof in the 400A package and no more color magnetic?

 

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6 minutes ago, dolsen said:

Are you certain it wasn't due to size, cost, logistics, manufacturing or other issues? Sometimes it even has to do with manpower (not wanting to cut or create other jobs). I'm thankful for all of the theories, because it definitely helps you think. But so far there are no answers to my question, just lots of speculation. I was really hoping for some definitive information, which I have been unable to find through a google search.

 

Also, you misinterpreted my post. I wasn't asking why two different transmissions were used. I was asking why the one gear was dropped from the ST to make it a 7 speed instead of an 8 speed, and how it was done (tuning, physically removing gears, or something else).

https://www.transmissiondigest.com/ford-motor-company-and-the-hat-trick/

Its not speculation. the 8F35 cant handle the torque and nor cant the transmission it was derived from. Ford developed them simultaneously. 

As for the dropping of the gear, so far it could even just be a typo for all we know.  But the chances it was dropped due to complaints and difficulty developing a solid shift logic is highly likely. 

 

Edited by Fingernip
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Just now, Fingernip said:

https://www.transmissiondigest.com/ford-motor-company-and-the-hat-trick/

Its not speculation. the 8F35 cant handle the torque and nor cant the transmission it was derived from. Ford developed them simultaneously. 

 

Thanks, this is the type of thing I was looking for. I was always under the impression that the differences in these transmissions was simply gear substrates and ratios to allow for different torque and vehicle applications. I did not know that the internal components and packaging sizes are different. I will never pretend to be a transmission expert.

 

However, this still doesn't answer my initial questions. Why the gear change, why only the ST (however now is seems obvious since it is its own transmission, but even this isn't a known fact), and then how was it accomplished? I'm just curious, I don't have a NEED to know. If I did I'm sure Ford would tell me 😄

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48 minutes ago, Fingernip said:

WOW they got rid of the stupid non working kick gate.

"Power Lif tgate replaced Hands-Free Foot Activ ated Lif tgate on STLine and standard on ST (400A)"

New owners wont know the joys of standing in the rain with arms full of groceries bashing your shin against the hitch trying in vein to get it to open.

 


I’ve had multiple vehicles with the kick to open lift gate.  Works perfectly every time.  Your technique must be flawed.  I kick in and up touching the top of my foot to the bottom of the bumper about a foot to the left or right of the hitch.  Do not wave your foot back and forth.

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27 minutes ago, dolsen said:

Thanks, this is the type of thing I was looking for. I was always under the impression that the differences in these transmissions was simply gear substrates and ratios to allow for different torque and vehicle applications. I did not know that the internal components and packaging sizes are different. I will never pretend to be a transmission expert.

 

However, this still doesn't answer my initial questions. Why the gear change, why only the ST (however now is seems obvious since it is its own transmission, but even this isn't a known fact), and then how was it accomplished? I'm just curious, I don't have a NEED to know. If I did I'm sure Ford would tell me 😄

I'm waiting to find out also. Hopefully someone at Ford can shed some light on it at some point. 

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1 minute ago, akirby said:


I’ve had multiple vehicles with the kick to open lift gate.  Works perfectly every time.  Your technique must be flawed.  I kick in and up touching the top of my foot to the bottom of the bumper about a foot to the left or right of the hitch.  Do not wave your foot back and forth.

I have practiced and gotten it to work with more of a slow kick straight under the bumper to the left of the hitch. It never works in a real world application though... only in my garage when I'm testing to see if its broken lol.  I haven't met anyone in person who has actually gotten the system to work when they needed it. Its become a bit of a joke and not just Fords system. 

 

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29 minutes ago, dolsen said:

However, this still doesn't answer my initial questions. Why the gear change, why only the ST (however now is seems obvious since it is its own transmission, but even this isn't a known fact), and then how was it accomplished? I'm just curious, I don't have a NEED to know. If I did I'm sure Ford would tell me 😄


Ford probably won’t disclose the exact reason.  Could be cost savings, better performance (speed or smoothness), durability or probably a combination.

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9 minutes ago, Fingernip said:

I have practiced and gotten it to work with more of a slow kick straight under the bumper to the left of the hitch. It never works in a real world application though... only in my garage when I'm testing to see if its broken lol.  I haven't met anyone in person who has actually gotten the system to work when they needed it. Its become a bit of a joke and not just Fords system. 

 


Not sure what to tell you.  It works for me 99% of the time.

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40 minutes ago, dolsen said:

Thanks, this is the type of thing I was looking for. I was always under the impression that the differences in these transmissions was simply gear substrates and ratios to allow for different torque and vehicle applications.


Also note that the numbers at the end designate the torque capacity in NM at the input shaft (after the torque converter).

 

I doubt we’ll see any more transverse 2.7L engines after Edge/Nautilus.  I think C2 will max out at 2.3L. and the 2.7 and 3.0 will be RWD only.

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The 2019-2020 ST's Transmission added 2 gears to the previous model's 6-speed. 1 ratio was an added overdrive (higher than the original for better highway fuel economy) and 1 ratio between the old model's 1st & 2nd creating a new 2nd ratio and making the old 2nd ratio a 3rd. This probably created too close ratios and an added shift when accelerating to 60 mph increasing the time. Since the old transmission's ratios were fine (no one complained all these years) I speculate they removed this 2nd and kept the overdrive. This makes sense to me because this is what I feel my 2016 Sport needs, an additional overdrive for highway fuel economy.

 

image.png

 

By the way, here is media page for the 2021:

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2020/10/28/2021-ford-edge--smarter--more-stylish-than-ever--adds-standard-s.html

Edited by omar302

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7 hours ago, omar302 said:

The 2019-2020 ST's Transmission added 2 gears to the previous model's 6-speed. 1 ratio was an added overdrive (higher than the original for better highway fuel economy) and 1 ratio between the old model's 1st & 2nd creating a new 2nd ratio and making the old 2nd ratio a 3rd. This probably created too close ratios and an added shift when accelerating to 60 mph increasing the time. Since the old transmission's ratios were fine (no one complained all these years) I speculate they removed this 2nd and kept the overdrive. This makes sense to me because this is what I feel my 2016 Sport needs, an additional overdrive for highway fuel economy.

 

image.png

 

By the way, here is media page for the 2021:

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2020/10/28/2021-ford-edge--smarter--more-stylish-than-ever--adds-standard-s.html

Thanks omar, I did see that publication you attached, and unfortunately there is literally one mention of a 7 speed trans 😂. But to your point, I can appreciate the critical thinking that went into this and I would wager you're probably correct. I have a 2015, and assuming the gear ratios are the same, I have to agree that I have no problem with the gears/shifting strategy. It appears that the gain in torque multiplication from the added 2nd gear is potentially lost with having an additional shift in there. I do not feel like 1st gear and 2nd gear are too close in my 2015, but I see how it possibly could be in the 2019-20.

 

However, and I don't say this to be rude to @omar302, nor was I trying to be rude to @akirby or @Fingernip or @Perblue, I am just hoping there is someone with better "google-fu" than myself to find something more definite as to why and how with the changes. I appreciate everyone's insight and thoughts though. And I can also recognize, as previously mentioned, this speculation may be the closest we ever get to the truth.

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This is more info than I’ve ever seen published publicly.  You’d probably have to get further details from an insider.

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Really they could have just done a 7 speed like they are now doing in the 2021 with the ratios they chose from a performance perspective. My best guess, but nothing definitive, is they added 2nd for keeping the rpms up higher but should have been more around 3.5ish, close ratios can work in the right transmission see the camaro and corvette 10 speed. Eight was added for mileage, which definitely worked.

 

 

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I wonder if removing the gear was a cost savings or performance decision, possibly both? I noticed the Nautilus keeps the 8 speed for 2021. I would have been fine with a 7 speed.

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