Rough Idle When Cold/P0301 Code - coolant intrusion - TSB 22-2133 & TSB 22-2229

[2015Edge2015]

On 1/1/2022 at 8:52 AM, Cerberus said:

Generally a long block is defined as everything except intake and exhaust manifolds, brackets etc,, and sometimes does not include valvecovers and oil pans etc

 

Short block is as above minus the head and oil pan

Sorry.. I'm a total noob to this. When you said everything but the manifold and intake manifolds.... you mean the turbo also gets replaced? I want to be clear on the turbo since lots of people say that it goes bad and it's expensive to replace. 

[Cerberus]

17 minutes ago, 2015Edge2015 said:

Sorry.. I'm a total noob to this. When you said everything but the manifold and intake manifolds.... you mean the turbo also gets replaced? I want to be clear on the turbo since lots of people say that it goes bad and it's expensive to replace. 

When we are talking about either a long block or a short block, we are talking about the core of your engine. This includes the engine block and what is inside in (crank, rods, pistons, camshaft if applicable)

Short block does not include the head, long block does.

So we are talking about the engine from the heart out.

Turbos would have been covered by the etc category of my previous reply.

Turbos are definitely not part of either the long block or obviously short block normal definitions. 

That doesn't necessarily mean that they would not be covered by warranty, and depending on mileage and accessibility, if an engine is being replaced, that might be a good time to do the turbo(s) as well

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

using coolant sealer products will not work in the long run, nor if you step to anything above low throttle.  ChrisFix has a video where he has tested such a product.

 

best deal is to either trade your vehicle in, or put in a nonCleveland block, OR go for a full Sport conversion ?

[edkene]

Hello All,

 

First off, I have a 2016 Ford Edge 2.0L Ecoboost SE with 63,XXX miles on it. I am the original owner. 

 

Looking for a bit of help. A while back I started experiencing a rough idle immediately after filling up my fuel tank (allowed the handle to pop; never topped it off). Shortly afterward I started having rough starts in the morning when it got cold and then it popped a CEL. I pulled the code and it was a P0301, Cylinder 1 Misfire.

 

I did some research and came across people who were reporting that the issues with rough idle immediately after a filling up a tank were typically caused by a bad Fuel Vapor Separator/Valve (part number F2GZ-9D289-A, if anyone ever needs it). I replaced it (a bit of a pain...story of another time) and I reset the ECU (disconnected the battery and stepped on the brake for about 10-15 seconds). Things were better for about a day, and then I got the rough idle while cold and it popped the P0301 again.

 

In my research I noticed a couple of people mentioned that replacing the Fuel Vapor Separator/Valve didn't always do it and that you needed to replace the Fuel Vapor Solenoid (part number 9U5Z-9F945C if anyone needs it). I got the part and replaced it (again, a bit more of a pain than I expected - story of my life). Again, I reset the ECU after replacing the unit. The vehicle started and ran fine immediately after replacing it and the next morning when it was cold. When I started it up after work I got the rough idle again and popped the same code (P0301). 

 

Question for everyone: what am I missing? This thing has all the hallmarks of a bad EGR valve (slight smell of gas, poor gas mileage, rough idle at start) but as far as I can tell these vehicles don't have it. When I look at the shop manual for the vehicle it gives the following for reasons for a P0301 code:

• Ignition System
• Fuel Injector 1 
• Running out of Fuel
• EVAP Purge Valve 
• Fuel Pressure
• Evaporative Emission System
• Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) system
• Base engine
• misfire monitor neutral profile correction has not been relearned since the last mechanical repair

 

The full list of issues are:

Rough Idle When starting

Slight Smell of fuel

No rough idle for the first start or two after resetting the ECU

Changed out the Fuel Vapor Valve

Changed out the Fuel Vapor Valve Solenoid

Poor fuel economy

After start up and the engine has been running for 10-15 seconds, no more rough idle. Can normally get past it by having the engine rev for 3-5 seconds

 

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

 

 

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

Welcome.  As soon as I saw 2016 and 2.0 and a misfire code, I was ready to cry lol.

 

It may simply be the plugs need changing.  ecoboosts eat plugs for lunch, and 60K is a good interval to change them anyway regardless of engine.

 

if a plug change/code reset does not fix the problem, you MAY be looking at a coolant intrusion problem.  check the engine label on the right side of the valve cover.  post a pic plz.  does it say Cleveland or VEP.  how is the coolant level? you will want to mark current level with a marker, then follow progress daily/weekly.

 

do you have remaining ford warranty?

[edkene]

Znow,

 

thanks for the info. I’ll take a look at the valve cover and post a pic - family has been in town and haven’t had a chance to do anything in the past couple of days. I’ll also make sure to keep a closer eye on the coolant level. 
 

One thing that I have found is that the engine actually does better when it is cold - it isn’t until after it has warmed over that the misfires occur. 
 

From what I’ve been able to read and a couple of mechanics I’ve talked to this could be a symptom of a bad ignition coil - after they warm up they can start having issues but be fine when cold. I’m going to troubleshoot some more tomorrow and see if that is the case. Either way though I’m going to replace the spark plugs since I’ll pull #1 to see how it looks anyway. 

[1004ron]

Quote

After start up and the engine has been running for 10-15 seconds, no more rough idle.

With the engine off and cooling down, the coolant which is still under some pressure makes its way into the combustion chambers, and then when its started takes some time to displace that coolant - this theory could explain what you describe, but that is speculation, which is also what the couple of mechanics were doing.

 

Before spending money on spark plugs or coils, I'd follow WWWPerfA_ZN0W   advice to check your engines place of manufacture - also pulling all plugs and visually inspecting them will also reveal if there's coolant intrusion. 

[edkene]

Thanks 1004 - I’m planning to pull plugs this afternoon. As for the engine manufacturing location, it says Cleveland Engine Plant manufactured on 14 June 2016. 
 

looked up the TSB - this could really suck if engine coolant intrusion is the issue. 

[1004ron]

24 minutes ago, edkene said:

Thanks 1004 - I’m planning to pull plugs this afternoon. As for the engine manufacturing location, it says Cleveland Engine Plant manufactured on 14 June 2016. 
 

looked up the TSB - this could really suck if engine coolant intrusion is the issue. 

With your confirmation that its a Cleveland engine makes it more likely your engine has the coolant intrusion.

 

At least now you are well informed prior contacting Ford - use all the info on hand and stress to them that its a Latent defect and you expect  an engine replacement at no cost to you.

 

A work associate/friend  is the second owner of one of these, and Ford would not commit to any assistance until they'd opened the engine to diagnose, so he didn't want to risk them declining so he bought a new engine from Ford and had an independent shop install.

 

You didn't respond to the previous question if you had an extended warranty - anyway, the extended warranty has first amount payable by you, which you should reject in this case.

[my2k2zx2]

I had this code last year in our 2016 2.0.  I replaced the plugs but it did not clear the code.  I moved the coils around and the code moved as well.  I bought a used coil and the code has yet to return.

[edkene]

1004 - I do not have the extended warranty, and since I’m at 64k miles and over 5 years since I bought it (Nov 2016) this will be *fun*

 

I am still planning on doing a bit more troubleshooting tonight (pulling plugs, swapping around the coils) to ensure that isn’t the issue, but based on the symptoms I’m leaning towards the water intrusion. Hopefully not the case though…

 

I do have an appt at the dealership to have them check it out as well. We’ll see what happens

Edited January 18, 2022 by edkene
fat fingered stuff

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

hopefully will move with the coil/plug and that's that.  if you take it to the dealership and they diagnose as a coolant intrusion problem, prob wont be able to get warranty coverage afterwards. BUT you can still possibly get assistance by mediating thru Ford corporte.

[edkene]

Sorry for the delay in an update but wanted to get everything worked out with Ford first.  
 

Took the vehicle in last week and they were backed up on getting to the vehicle - seems the local dealership has been over-booking their techs. First day didn’t get to it, finally got to it the second day. They took a look and suspected a coolant intrusion problem so pressurized the coolant system and left it overnight. The next morning they pulled the plugs (this is the method outlined by the TSB), looked for water intrusion and what do you know, I’ve got a problem. They give me a call and say it isn’t under warranty and it’ll be close to $7k to fix. 
 

I then called Ford customer service and explained the issue. Bunch of back and forth later and I’m paying less than 25% of the quoted amount and Ford is covering the rest (thank you for the “latent defect” phrase). Interesting thing I learned - the amount I’m paying and the amount Ford is paying (combined) is less than the quoted amount from the dealership. When I asked the dealership about the discrepancy I was told that my initial quote was the “customer amount” and the new amount that is being paid is the “warranty amount.”

 

I now have the parts on order and will be awaiting the repair. When dealing with Ford they said they would reimburse me for my rental vehicle cost, which is a nice and unexpected addition. 
 

On an extra note, when I first took the vehicle in to the dealership I asked if they were seeing a lot of these engines with this issue - the service adviser said that he has been seeing an awful lot of them lately. When I asked what people who are out of warranty have been doing he replied that they have normally been trading them in. I can’t imagine the hit people are taking by trading in a vehicle with a useless engine. 

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

glad Ron's advice helped you out. way to go, Ron!

[2015Edge2015]

Have any of you guys just topped off the cooland when needed? How much worse can it get besides the initial rough idle at start up? Does it eventually poor coolant inside the cylinder ? Or just trickles inside forever?

[2015Edge2015]

You need a new engine 100%. The person who sold it to you most likely knew. My 2015 is doing the same. Rough idle at start up. Now a CEL light of cyl 3 misfire. And waterfall noise.  Been told it needs a new engine by a shop. So I'm driving it and topping it off until lord knows what's going to happen. Seems like the 2.0l Cleveland engine is faulty from the factory. There's a class action lawsuit going on but haven't heard anything of it sadly. Crossing my fingers ford does the right thing . Im done with ford if not. Next car will be a Japanese suv or full electric. 

Edited February 1, 2022 by 2015Edge2015

[Dulce]

46 minutes ago, 2015Edge2015 said:

Have any of you guys just topped off the cooland when needed? How much worse can it get besides the initial rough idle at start up? Does it eventually poor coolant inside the cylinder ? Or just trickles inside forever?

I have ?… and it works fine. I have no plans in replacing my engine, just driving it till it drops. I have used the Kseal in coolant and has helped alot. I know its just a bandaid but I will continue to bandaid to keep it running. 
Note : 2016 Ford Edge current mileage 113k 

[2015Edge2015]

On 2/1/2022 at 7:57 AM, Dulce said:

I have ?… and it works fine. I have no plans in replacing my engine, just driving it till it drops. I have used the Kseal in coolant and has helped alot. I know its just a bandaid but I will continue to bandaid to keep it running. 
Note : 2016 Ford Edge current mileage 113k 

Lol! I'm doing the same. Will add water until the engines falls off. I'll probably try kseal. I heard good stuff about blue devil. Just scared to ruin my heater core with all those products!

[Paul Locke]

I have a 2014 Edge with the 2.0 Ecoboost with 100,000 miles that is leaking coolant into the engine.  No Codes or check engine light on. I have seen many posts for the 2015 and newer but none with the first gen.  Has anyone have or had this problem?  Its at the dealership now waiting for diagnosis. I am glad I have an extended warranty.

[ChickieSailor]

Hello,

 

We are having trouble with our coolant, we don't know if its leaking or evaporating.  Its been to a garage twice with them saying they have found nothing!! We had them drain an replace the coolant because they said there was some problems with a coolant that Ford used that evaporated quickly. We know there is something going on or the coolant would not be disappearing!! HELP has only one else had this problem

Coolant pics.eml

[wandering mind]

So, I own a 2019 Edge Titanium.  I bought it in December of 2018, after FoMoCo bought back my 2017 Escape Titanium with the 1.5L EcoBoost engine.  The Escape was a lemon.

 

After the fiasco with the Escape, I bought a 150k mile ESP for 4 years, with a $100 deductible.  I'm glad I did.

 

Last summer, my Edge started running rough.  I thought I got some bad fuel.  About the same time, my coolant level started dropping, so I started topping it off.  I knew in the back of my mind it was probably burning coolant, but "I have a VEP engine," I told myself.

Try and schedule an appointment with a dealership, no availability within three months!  Finally found a dealer with an opening only two weeks out, so I take it.

No fault found, $100 deductible.  Ugh, coolant is still disappearing, so I reschedule two days later.  Next appointment is three weeks out, so I take it.

 

Meanwhile, I'm adding distilled water to my coolant surge tank, in quantities which are making me cringe.  But, this is my only vehicle, and it must roll.  My O2 sensor is wrecked, as is my catalytic converter and my resonator.

Finally, the dealership found the leak.  They applied the TSB 20-2234, replaced my O2 sensor, and sent me out the door.  My Edge lacks any real acceleration at this point.  Dealer says emissions controls warranties are separate from ESP coverage.  Okay, gotchya - I'm gonna pay something.  This is my only vehicle, and it must roll.

 

Called FoMoCo Corporate, filed a customer request for financial assistance with an issue caused by a failure of one of their covered parts - namely the EGR valve. 

 

FoMoCo needs numbers from my repair order, so they can do their back-end calculations.  FoMoCo tries to call the dealership.  Dealership remains incommunicado for three weeks, not answering their phones nor responding to voicemails.  All the dealership had to do is pick up the phone, and read off some digits.  Nope, that Black Label dealership is more like a No Label dealership, service-wise.

 

Finally, after three weeks, FoMoCo gets the numbers.  They offer to pay 75% of the catalytic, while I pay 25%.  Deal, let's do this, but they should be paying 100% in my eyes.  Whatever, let's just get this done.  But I ain't goin' back to that one dealership, they can't even answer their phones.  I hope they suffer, somehow...

 

Find another nearby dealership with a loaner vehicle.  Catalytic gets replaced, as we don't yet know the resonator is plugged up.  I pick up my Edge, and as I try to drive away I notice it still lacks power.  Disheartened, I babied it home, and returned the following morning.  Also, a new clunking sound exists when I accelerate.
 

Tech diags the next issue as the resonator, and an exhaust hangar as having slipped off.  FoMoCo offers to pay 75% for the resonator, and I pay 25%.  Deal, let's do this.  I just want it done...

 

BUT as the tech was backing out of the service bay after diagnosing the resonator as being plugged, my Edge stumbled and tossed a code.  You know how people always complain their vehicle NEVER acts up for the tech?  Well, mine finally did just that...

Service rep calls to ask, have I had the EGR replaced yet.  I told her, that is what proceeded all this fun.  Service rep tells me about the tech diagnosing my vehicle with a misfire, and that he was troubleshooting it, and says she'll have to get back to me.

 

I later hear back from FoMoCo via email.  I need a new engine.  Surely autocorrect changed EGR to Engine for her, right?  I call the dealer - nope, I need a new engine.  The tech has scoped pictures of coolant in my cylinders.  So I'm all like, "ok, how much is this gonna cost me, $100?"  Service rep says she doesn't know yet, and says she needs to run my VIN.  I'm all like, "if it's $100, let's do this already."  I could tell the service rep didn't like this conversation, presumably because it was possibly gonna cost me a lot.  She eventually came back with, "yes sir, it looks like it'll be $100."  Neither the service rep, nor FoMoCo, seemed to know I had an ESP for my Edge.

 

So here I sit, still without my vehicle.  I've been without it effectively since January 3rd or 5th, I forget.  At this point, the resonator has arrived, the catalytic is installed, the new long block engine to replace my verified VEP engine has arrived, and we're only waiting to hear from the ESP folks that Wear & Tear can begin their work (essentially waiting for the thumbs up that ESP will pay their part).  Been in this waiting pattern for almost two weeks...

 

So, how many people are out there with a VEP 2.0L EcoBoost engine, and needed a replacement long block due to coolant intrusion issues at the EGR?

 

Also, how many out there can say their last TWO Ford vehicles both needed replacement long blocks ... and that at least one of those TWO vehicles (to date, anyways), was bought back by FoMoCo as a lemon?

 

But I'll be honest.  Aside from all the above EGR-related troubles, that vehicle has done well.  It has been a dream to pilot, as evidenced by the 102,517 miles currently on the odo...

Edited February 16, 2022 by wandering mind

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

interesting read. really shouldn't have to have paid anything but a deductible, i agree. and yes, you are not the only one to have had 2 vehicles with coolant issues and similar tales to yours, lol.

 

luckily you have a 2019, so probably avoid the cracked flexplate issue that showed up on the 2015-2018 MYs.

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

@ChickieSailor i hope you have an honest dealership.

 

but first, we need to know MY, engine, mileage and all the good stuff to give you a targeted response.

[enigma-2]

Ford coolant doesnt evaporate quickly.

My 09 mkx doesn’t use any to speak of between oil changes. (3.5 Cyclone).

 

Hope your dealer found the problem, my initial guess would center in on the water pump failing (if outer seal is leaking, its dumping coolant overboard through weap holes. If inner seal leaks, it dumps coolant into oil pan. They can test for water in oil to confirm).

 

Could also be a hose leaking or head gasket. Coolant in oil will turn the oil a tanish cream color. 

 

Read this as well.

https://fordauthority.com/2020/12/new-lawsuit-targets-ford-ecoboost-four-cylinder-coolant-leaks/

[2015Edge2015]

On 1/25/2022 at 2:36 PM, edkene said:

Sorry for the delay in an update but wanted to get everything worked out with Ford first.  
 

Took the vehicle in last week and they were backed up on getting to the vehicle - seems the local dealership has been over-booking their techs. First day didn’t get to it, finally got to it the second day. They took a look and suspected a coolant intrusion problem so pressurized the coolant system and left it overnight. The next morning they pulled the plugs (this is the method outlined by the TSB), looked for water intrusion and what do you know, I’ve got a problem. They give me a call and say it isn’t under warranty and it’ll be close to $7k to fix. 
 

I then called Ford customer service and explained the issue. Bunch of back and forth later and I’m paying less than 25% of the quoted amount and Ford is covering the rest (thank you for the “latent defect” phrase). Interesting thing I learned - the amount I’m paying and the amount Ford is paying (combined) is less than the quoted amount from the dealership. When I asked the dealership about the discrepancy I was told that my initial quote was the “customer amount” and the new amount that is being paid is the “warranty amount.”

 

I now have the parts on order and will be awaiting the repair. When dealing with Ford they said they would reimburse me for my rental vehicle cost, which is a nice and unexpected addition. 
 

On an extra note, when I first took the vehicle in to the dealership I asked if they were seeing a lot of these engines with this issue - the service adviser said that he has been seeing an awful lot of them lately. When I asked what people who are out of warranty have been doing he replied that they have normally been trading them in. I can’t imagine the hit people are taking by trading in a vehicle with a useless engine. 

I'm in the same boat. Coolant intrusion. Not sure how to handle this since trading it in is just impossible. CeL light is on permanently and eats cooland rather quick. Top it off every 4 days or so. My question for you is... did you have any kind of warranty on it? Or were you 100% out of any warranty? I'm asking since the "latent defect" phrase made Ford pay for some of the cost. Thinking of doing the same but I'm 100% in the no extended warranty boat and think it would be hard to get them to help me out. 7 to 8k is just not doable and feel as this should be treated like the 1.6 liter motor settlement everyone got due to the very same nature of the problem. Any advice would be appreciated.  I like this car alot. Oh btw, I have 156k miles.

Edited March 11, 2022 by 2015Edge2015