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Cman

EDGE STALLING // Throttle body thread

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Big thread that seems like it should have more attention...

 

http://www.fordedgeforum.com/topic/12726-throttle-body-service-or-failure/

 

 

Seems like a growing issue. Thought it might make sense to draw more eyes...

New member. HUGE thanks for the posts so far. You let me know what to look for...

My 12 Edge was stalling over and over. I made it happen after my wife told me... I just drove it aggressively and it died fairly quickly (showed the wrench etc). It reset when I restarted...

First trip to the dealer(after multiple stalls), no repair, dealer could not duplicate.

-Car died 2 days later (and more times)

Second trip to dealer, Replaced canister purge valve (I let them know that this sounded like a throttle body issue and the Service manager said yes, and that it is a known issue)

-Car died a few days later

Third trip- They replaced the MAF sensor ("We cant do anything without a code for the Throttle body")

Car Died again.

This last time, they sent a tow truck because my wife simply would not drive the vehicle again. They also sent a rental car.

I called Ford Corp and started a case with them as well. I told them that I would not let my wife and children back in that vehicle and that, given the history here I was surprised that there wasn't a recall and or a class action suite not based on injuries but on time / effort / stress...

Ford got together with the dealer and they hooked up the blackbox and had a tech drive the car for a few days and it stalled again and the tech hit the button while it was failing and it gave "THE code"...

P2111 - Throttle Body actuator

Here's the deal. When you restart your vehicle, the code clears because the Throttle body actuator resets and is no longer stuck...

They'll likely only find this with the black box because it records the systems history while driving and saves everything for a few minutes before and after you hit the "mark" button when the vehicle dies.

It seemed like the dealer wanted to help but Ford would not let them until I made that call. The dealer said "we have to go through these steps before doing the throttle body"

It was absurd really... I didn't ask, but it begs the question, why would they not do the black box first?

And here's the thing about the misdirection that's starting to happen in this thread regarding safety...

Cars rear end or other cars all the time. Stalled or not, shit happens because there is difference in speed between two vehicles. The thought that one has breaks and one is just stalling, so brakes will prevent blah blah blah is beyond stupid.

My wife narrowly missed getting hit on the freeway... She also nearly got T boned because the car died pulling out onto a busy street (leaving her stuck sideways in traffic and a truck pulled into the next lane but the car behind it had it's view blocked and slammed on the brakes and missed them by a few feet...

My wife said "When you children ask you what the nasty smell is and its the burnt rubber of the car that just missed you, you know it's time to stop driving the car"...

This is a numbers game Ford...

I appreciate you fixing our Edge and we've loved it so far but, much like GM have learned, you don't want to find out where the break even point is between fixing the problem and paying for bodies...

I'm betting Ford step up.

If your vehicle is stalling and not throwing codes, call Ford directly. Do that no matter what year the vehicle is. It's not like you are throwing your dealer under the buss. You are simply giving your dealer support by activating Ford.

Ask for the blackbox test. Refuse any bullshit answer they give you.

Document everything and let them know you are documenting everything... It will give Ford and the dealer proper incentive.

Hope this helps... Be safe.

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There's no "misdirection" going on, just perspective.

 

I do think Ford should simply replace the Throttle body without a code if the owner reports that it stalled then restarted with no other symptoms. You shouldn't have to go through multiple failures or recorders just because the PCM doesn't keep the code.

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This is exactly what I've been talking about all along regarding this fault being a pretty significant safety issue. Ford needs to step up and extend the warranty on the TB, issue a TSB or recall and fix this problem before someone's seriously injured or killed and they have to deal with a serious law suit, the resulting bad PR, loss of consumer confidence,and loss of sales.

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There is a TSB and they did extend the warranty to 10 yrs/150K miles.

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There is a TSB and they did extend the warranty to 10 yrs/150K miles.

 

I don't think that applies to the Edge, or any of the 3.5 family of engines.

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Can you provide more information on this, such as a TSB number, or other documentation showing where the warranty has been extended on this part? I've not seen anything on these forums about it, and I just did a quick Google search and found nothing about a TSB or extended warranty on the TB. There are, however, tons of complaints about this TB problem, because it's not isolated to the Edge. This TB was used in several models, including Escape, Edge, and F150.

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Easily the worst part of this is Ford Motor making the dealers jump through repeated hoops (refusing to replace the part after several requests)

 

This issue is clearly very difficult to get a code, and the dealers had to be lead by me to the solution and not till after multiple stalls including a nasty situation on the freeway...

 

It seems worse than dismissive (to the point of feigned ignorance) that when a car is having these same symptoms that ford doesn't immediately instruct the dealership to do the Black Box.

 

Sending Family's back out on the road 2-3-4 times?

 

Suggesting the Extended warranty is a key here (WHICH IS NOT DONE FOR THE EDGE) misses the point a bit although it's not as dumb as suggesting "stalling out isnt that dangerous because other cars have brakes"...

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I agree that dealers should be replacing these under warranty after the first stall with or without codes. The fact that it doesn't leave a code is Ford's fault and the customer shouldn't have to jump through hoops.

 

I can also see it being dangerous in RARE circumstances where you're in the middle of a jam packed interstate with fast moving vehicles and you have to move across 2 or 3 lanes to get to the shoulder. But the vast majority of failure scenarios are nothing more than an inconvenience having to stop and restart the vehicle.

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Having been in the vehicle twice as it died and nearly getting t boned once and brakes squealing rear ended the second (never mind the wife and kids dying on the freeway and sitting sideways in heavy traffic ), I think you're being pretty dismissive / soothing...

 

Of the 8 times it died, It put the family or I at risk 4...

 

50% doesn't = a majority at all, much less a vast majority.

 

 

But even if it were 4 of 12 times, are you trying to say putting people at risk 4 times is OK because it's an acceptable risk ratio?

Edited by Cman

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No, I think you should be able to get it fixed when it dies the FIRST time.

 

My point is that vehicles stall or slow down thousands of times every single day whether it's bad gas, running out of gas, pcm problems, fuel pumps, flat tires, etc. It doesn't stop suddenly or lose control - it just loses power until you restart it.

 

I don't personally see it as any more dangerous than anything else that happens on a regular basis including aggressive driving, weaving, not paying attention, etc. If you feel otherwise that's fine.

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But it didn't actually cause an accident in 100% of your failure instances. How close it came to causing an accident is really just a matter of opinion. Your idea of a "close call" may be totally different from mine or anyone else's.

 

Bottom line is that stalls that don't result in loss of control generally are not considered high enough risk in the legal world to be worthy of recalls. This isn't my opinion or even Ford's opinion, it's the opinion of the OEMs collectively and the government . The fact that it happened to you 8 times is inexcusable, it should be fixed correctly the first time, but that doesn't justify a corporate-wide recall over millions of vehicles unless the occurrence rate (number of vehicles that have the issue) gets to a high enough threshold.

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The very least that should be done is to update the PCM programming to allow the TB to be caught in the act of failure, and issue an alert to all owners (2011+ ?) to have their PCM updated immediately. The people who may have experienced this problem are not necessarily restricted to this forum, and may not be aware of the solution. Being proactive now could put Ford in a very defensible position should a serious incident occur as a result of this flaw. If we are going to rely on computers to tell us the problem, let's get the programming right in the first place (Windows updates, anyone?).

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The very least that should be done is to update the PCM programming to allow the TB to be caught in the act of failure, and issue an alert to all owners (2011+ ?) to have their PCM updated immediately. The people who may have experienced this problem are not necessarily restricted to this forum, and may not be aware of the solution. Being proactive now could put Ford in a very defensible position should a serious incident occur as a result of this flaw. If we are going to rely on computers to tell us the problem, let's get the programming right in the first place (Windows updates, anyone?).

 

But this is exactly what they have done for the Fusion and Escape. Obviously there is something different about the 3.5 that has stopped them from doing it, whether it's technically different or much lower occurrence rates. Ford must have a reason for not doing this, since they have shown that they will do it in other cases.

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Well, it would be nice to know if they are evaluating the Edge for this problem (haven't seen it reported on the MKX oddly enough). My point is that Ford has a timeline for whatever they do (production, marketing, service advisories, etc). So a delay from first report to actual action is understandable. But if problems are being reported, and they have issued an advisory for other models, why not push up the priority for the Edge? Why are most dealers so unaware of the issue with the throttle body? Why do dealers not have a tool that allows THEM to do the diagnostic (say, by putting the PCM in "engineering mode" to capture this data)? Have an interim action advisory that the customer can take to the dealer, while the final solution is sorted out. This affects realtime drivability, and is certainly not just an annoying "ambient light color" issue.

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I am getting ready to kick Ford to the curb, which is sad because i loved loved loved my Taurus, due to this throttle body mess. My 73 yr old husband almost got hit in an intersection because it turned off. I need a solution to my problem or else I'm ditching this brand and telling all our my friends and family as well.

I am currently complaining about my 2012 Ford edge limited. And the timestamp on this forum is way wrong!

Edited by thefarmsgirl

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The solution is to get the throttle body replaced. It's only a few hundred bucks. Save the receipt.

 

If you had purchased an extended warranty it would be covered but you'd still be $1000 in the hole.

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Today my 2011 edge lost power. Everything went dead but surprisingly the engine was still running. Put it in park and tried to shut it off but it wouldn't. Put my feet on the brakes and wouldn't get out of park, engine still running! Removed my keys engine still running! My heat wouldn't go off! Got out of the vehicle in a no parking zone. My friend came to my aid with my vehicle still idling.He had to remove a fuse and unplug the battery, finally the vehicle went dead. Restarted and sync rebooted. Omg! I freaked out thinking of all the scenarios that could have happened. I have brought it in to the dealership and the service agent said that it's the first time he's heard of this.I come on the Web and see this is an ongoing problem. I will have to call in the morning before their diagnosis cost me an arm and a leg.SMH

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Whoa, that's no good! Good luck, hope it's just the throttle body; could be a bad BCM or ignition switch also. They will need to run codes at the very least to see if the PCM has left any clues.

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That's not the same problem at all. There's no way a bad throttle body could ever keep the vehicle running after you pulled the key out. It has to be a bad PCM or BCM. Those are the only two modules that can bypass the ignition switch.

Edited by Waldo

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Was the check engine lit? If the PCM is faulty, it will throw a code and light the CE light.

 

Here's what the service manual says about engine shutdown:

 

Computer Controlled Shutdown

The PCM controls the PCM power relay when the ignition is turned to the ON or START position, by grounding the PCM relay control (PCMRC) circuit. After the ignition is turned to the OFF, ACC or LOCK position, the PCM stays powered up until the correct engine shutdown occurs.

 

The ignition switch position run (ISP-R) and the injector power monitor (INJPWRM) circuits provide the ignition state input to the PCM. Based on the ISP-R and INJPWRM signals the PCM determines when to power down the PCM power relay.

 

I would suppose that it could be a lot of things, but it does seem to indicate the ignition switch or fuel injector power monitor as where the fault lies. I would lean towards the ignition switch.

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Just curious does this vehicle have a remote start? it sure was behaving like the remote start was activated if it has one.

Edited by macbwt

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Big thread that seems like it should have more attention...

 

http://www.fordedgeforum.com/topic/12726-throttle-body-service-or-failure/

 

 

Seems like a growing issue. Thought it might make sense to draw more eyes...

New member. HUGE thanks for the posts so far. You let me know what to look for...

My 12 Edge was stalling over and over. I made it happen after my wife told me... I just drove it aggressively and it died fairly quickly (showed the wrench etc). It reset when I restarted...

First trip to the dealer(after multiple stalls), no repair, dealer could not duplicate.

-Car died 2 days later (and more times)

Second trip to dealer, Replaced canister purge valve (I let them know that this sounded like a throttle body issue and the Service manager said yes, and that it is a known issue)

-Car died a few days later

Third trip- They replaced the MAF sensor ("We cant do anything without a code for the Throttle body")

Car Died again.

This last time, they sent a tow truck because my wife simply would not drive the vehicle again. They also sent a rental car.

I called Ford Corp and started a case with them as well. I told them that I would not let my wife and children back in that vehicle and that, given the history here I was surprised that there wasn't a recall and or a class action suite not based on injuries but on time / effort / stress...

Ford got together with the dealer and they hooked up the blackbox and had a tech drive the car for a few days and it stalled again and the tech hit the button while it was failing and it gave "THE code"...

P2111 - Throttle Body actuator

Here's the deal. When you restart your vehicle, the code clears because the Throttle body actuator resets and is no longer stuck...

They'll likely only find this with the black box because it records the systems history while driving and saves everything for a few minutes before and after you hit the "mark" button when the vehicle dies.

It seemed like the dealer wanted to help but Ford would not let them until I made that call. The dealer said "we have to go through these steps before doing the throttle body"

It was absurd really... I didn't ask, but it begs the question, why would they not do the black box first?

And here's the thing about the misdirection that's starting to happen in this thread regarding safety...

Cars rear end or other cars all the time. Stalled or not, shit happens because there is difference in speed between two vehicles. The thought that one has breaks and one is just stalling, so brakes will prevent blah blah blah is beyond stupid.

My wife narrowly missed getting hit on the freeway... She also nearly got T boned because the car died pulling out onto a busy street (leaving her stuck sideways in traffic and a truck pulled into the next lane but the car behind it had it's view blocked and slammed on the brakes and missed them by a few feet...

My wife said "When you children ask you what the nasty smell is and its the burnt rubber of the car that just missed you, you know it's time to stop driving the car"...

This is a numbers game Ford...

I appreciate you fixing our Edge and we've loved it so far but, much like GM have learned, you don't want to find out where the break even point is between fixing the problem and paying for bodies...

I'm betting Ford step up.

If your vehicle is stalling and not throwing codes, call Ford directly. Do that no matter what year the vehicle is. It's not like you are throwing your dealer under the buss. You are simply giving your dealer support by activating Ford.

Ask for the blackbox test. Refuse any bullshit answer they give you.

Document everything and let them know you are documenting everything... It will give Ford and the dealer proper incentive.

Hope this helps... Be safe.

 

I am having the same issue and the local dealer can't replicate the problem. What Ford number did you call for assistance?

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Ford started "fly-by- wire" in 2004. Through the years there have been some problems with the fly-by-wire ETB (Electronic Throttle Body). The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) did a year long investigation on these failures and determined that the problem did not require a safety recall. Ford is providing an extended warranty for these ETB's thru January 31, 2015. Moving on...I own a 2016 Ford Edge....9,744 miles on Aug 2, 2016...my ETB was replaced after 3 failures with a DTC of P2111...Throttle Actuator Control System - Stuck Open....It seems to me this problem still exists. Anybody injured yet...or worse?

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