Rough Idle When Cold/P0301 Code - coolant intrusion - TSB 22-2133 & TSB 22-2229 - 2.0L Ecoboost

[ChickieSailor]

Hello,

 

We are having trouble with our coolant, we don't know if its leaking or evaporating.  Its been to a garage twice with them saying they have found nothing!! We had them drain an replace the coolant because they said there was some problems with a coolant that Ford used that evaporated quickly. We know there is something going on or the coolant would not be disappearing!! HELP has only one else had this problem

Coolant pics.eml

[wandering mind]

So, I own a 2019 Edge Titanium.  I bought it in December of 2018, after FoMoCo bought back my 2017 Escape Titanium with the 1.5L EcoBoost engine.  The Escape was a lemon.

 

After the fiasco with the Escape, I bought a 150k mile ESP for 4 years, with a $100 deductible.  I'm glad I did.

 

Last summer, my Edge started running rough.  I thought I got some bad fuel.  About the same time, my coolant level started dropping, so I started topping it off.  I knew in the back of my mind it was probably burning coolant, but "I have a VEP engine," I told myself.

Try and schedule an appointment with a dealership, no availability within three months!  Finally found a dealer with an opening only two weeks out, so I take it.

No fault found, $100 deductible.  Ugh, coolant is still disappearing, so I reschedule two days later.  Next appointment is three weeks out, so I take it.

 

Meanwhile, I'm adding distilled water to my coolant surge tank, in quantities which are making me cringe.  But, this is my only vehicle, and it must roll.  My O2 sensor is wrecked, as is my catalytic converter and my resonator.

Finally, the dealership found the leak.  They applied the TSB 20-2234, replaced my O2 sensor, and sent me out the door.  My Edge lacks any real acceleration at this point.  Dealer says emissions controls warranties are separate from ESP coverage.  Okay, gotchya - I'm gonna pay something.  This is my only vehicle, and it must roll.

 

Called FoMoCo Corporate, filed a customer request for financial assistance with an issue caused by a failure of one of their covered parts - namely the EGR valve. 

 

FoMoCo needs numbers from my repair order, so they can do their back-end calculations.  FoMoCo tries to call the dealership.  Dealership remains incommunicado for three weeks, not answering their phones nor responding to voicemails.  All the dealership had to do is pick up the phone, and read off some digits.  Nope, that Black Label dealership is more like a No Label dealership, service-wise.

 

Finally, after three weeks, FoMoCo gets the numbers.  They offer to pay 75% of the catalytic, while I pay 25%.  Deal, let's do this, but they should be paying 100% in my eyes.  Whatever, let's just get this done.  But I ain't goin' back to that one dealership, they can't even answer their phones.  I hope they suffer, somehow...

 

Find another nearby dealership with a loaner vehicle.  Catalytic gets replaced, as we don't yet know the resonator is plugged up.  I pick up my Edge, and as I try to drive away I notice it still lacks power.  Disheartened, I babied it home, and returned the following morning.  Also, a new clunking sound exists when I accelerate.
 

Tech diags the next issue as the resonator, and an exhaust hangar as having slipped off.  FoMoCo offers to pay 75% for the resonator, and I pay 25%.  Deal, let's do this.  I just want it done...

 

BUT as the tech was backing out of the service bay after diagnosing the resonator as being plugged, my Edge stumbled and tossed a code.  You know how people always complain their vehicle NEVER acts up for the tech?  Well, mine finally did just that...

Service rep calls to ask, have I had the EGR replaced yet.  I told her, that is what proceeded all this fun.  Service rep tells me about the tech diagnosing my vehicle with a misfire, and that he was troubleshooting it, and says she'll have to get back to me.

 

I later hear back from FoMoCo via email.  I need a new engine.  Surely autocorrect changed EGR to Engine for her, right?  I call the dealer - nope, I need a new engine.  The tech has scoped pictures of coolant in my cylinders.  So I'm all like, "ok, how much is this gonna cost me, $100?"  Service rep says she doesn't know yet, and says she needs to run my VIN.  I'm all like, "if it's $100, let's do this already."  I could tell the service rep didn't like this conversation, presumably because it was possibly gonna cost me a lot.  She eventually came back with, "yes sir, it looks like it'll be $100."  Neither the service rep, nor FoMoCo, seemed to know I had an ESP for my Edge.

 

So here I sit, still without my vehicle.  I've been without it effectively since January 3rd or 5th, I forget.  At this point, the resonator has arrived, the catalytic is installed, the new long block engine to replace my verified VEP engine has arrived, and we're only waiting to hear from the ESP folks that Wear & Tear can begin their work (essentially waiting for the thumbs up that ESP will pay their part).  Been in this waiting pattern for almost two weeks...

 

So, how many people are out there with a VEP 2.0L EcoBoost engine, and needed a replacement long block due to coolant intrusion issues at the EGR?

 

Also, how many out there can say their last TWO Ford vehicles both needed replacement long blocks ... and that at least one of those TWO vehicles (to date, anyways), was bought back by FoMoCo as a lemon?

 

But I'll be honest.  Aside from all the above EGR-related troubles, that vehicle has done well.  It has been a dream to pilot, as evidenced by the 102,517 miles currently on the odo...

Edited February 16, 2022 by wandering mind

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

interesting read. really shouldn't have to have paid anything but a deductible, i agree. and yes, you are not the only one to have had 2 vehicles with coolant issues and similar tales to yours, lol.

 

luckily you have a 2019, so probably avoid the cracked flexplate issue that showed up on the 2015-2018 MYs.

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

@ChickieSailor i hope you have an honest dealership.

 

but first, we need to know MY, engine, mileage and all the good stuff to give you a targeted response.

[enigma-2]

Ford coolant doesnt evaporate quickly.

My 09 mkx doesn’t use any to speak of between oil changes. (3.5 Cyclone).

 

Hope your dealer found the problem, my initial guess would center in on the water pump failing (if outer seal is leaking, its dumping coolant overboard through weap holes. If inner seal leaks, it dumps coolant into oil pan. They can test for water in oil to confirm).

 

Could also be a hose leaking or head gasket. Coolant in oil will turn the oil a tanish cream color. 

 

Read this as well.

https://fordauthority.com/2020/12/new-lawsuit-targets-ford-ecoboost-four-cylinder-coolant-leaks/

[2015Edge2015]

On 1/25/2022 at 2:36 PM, edkene said:

Sorry for the delay in an update but wanted to get everything worked out with Ford first.  
 

Took the vehicle in last week and they were backed up on getting to the vehicle - seems the local dealership has been over-booking their techs. First day didn’t get to it, finally got to it the second day. They took a look and suspected a coolant intrusion problem so pressurized the coolant system and left it overnight. The next morning they pulled the plugs (this is the method outlined by the TSB), looked for water intrusion and what do you know, I’ve got a problem. They give me a call and say it isn’t under warranty and it’ll be close to $7k to fix. 
 

I then called Ford customer service and explained the issue. Bunch of back and forth later and I’m paying less than 25% of the quoted amount and Ford is covering the rest (thank you for the “latent defect” phrase). Interesting thing I learned - the amount I’m paying and the amount Ford is paying (combined) is less than the quoted amount from the dealership. When I asked the dealership about the discrepancy I was told that my initial quote was the “customer amount” and the new amount that is being paid is the “warranty amount.”

 

I now have the parts on order and will be awaiting the repair. When dealing with Ford they said they would reimburse me for my rental vehicle cost, which is a nice and unexpected addition. 
 

On an extra note, when I first took the vehicle in to the dealership I asked if they were seeing a lot of these engines with this issue - the service adviser said that he has been seeing an awful lot of them lately. When I asked what people who are out of warranty have been doing he replied that they have normally been trading them in. I can’t imagine the hit people are taking by trading in a vehicle with a useless engine. 

I'm in the same boat. Coolant intrusion. Not sure how to handle this since trading it in is just impossible. CeL light is on permanently and eats cooland rather quick. Top it off every 4 days or so. My question for you is... did you have any kind of warranty on it? Or were you 100% out of any warranty? I'm asking since the "latent defect" phrase made Ford pay for some of the cost. Thinking of doing the same but I'm 100% in the no extended warranty boat and think it would be hard to get them to help me out. 7 to 8k is just not doable and feel as this should be treated like the 1.6 liter motor settlement everyone got due to the very same nature of the problem. Any advice would be appreciated.  I like this car alot. Oh btw, I have 156k miles.

Edited March 11, 2022 by 2015Edge2015

[edkene]

Hey 2015,

 

I was 100% out of warranty. I was at 64,000 miles and 5 years and two months of ownership (warranty is 60,000 miles or 5 years). 

 

Having 156k miles may be a bit more difficult since you are well past the 60k mark - I’m not sure. Never hurts to give Ford a call, however. The largest issue you’re g oing to run into is that Ford will want you to have taken it to a Ford dealership. When I called the Ford customer service people they asked which Ford dealership it was at so they could call the service rep. So you’ll have to get an appointment at a Ford dealership and be willing to leave the vehicle with them at least overnight so they can do the leak down test (they pressurize the coolant system, leave it for a few hours, then come back and check to see if the pressure has gone down. If it has they then pull the spark plugs and look in the cylinders for water intrusion). Once they have verified that is indeed the issue then you can start the process rolling with Ford.

 

As an additional note, to anyone who has this problem, be careful with the dealership. When I was told my vehicle was complete and I went to pick it up they tried to charge me an extra ~$550 for “one time use parts.” They said the parts were parts that could not be re-used and had to be replaced when they did the engine. They told me that Ford wasn’t going to pay for them and so I would have to. I refused and said that wasn’t part of the deal with Ford. Finally Ford corporate decided to pay for the extra amount since we (corporate Ford) and I had an agreement in writing as to what my portion of the cost would be.

 

When the stealership dealership was trying to get me to pay the extra amount I kept asking questions about what exactly all the parts were for, and the service rep kept giving me the runaround. I had a suspicion that the extra parts were not factored into the initial price they gave to Ford for repairing the vehicle, and I believe I am right. After I got the vehicle back with the itemized receipt, I went and looked at all of the parts the service rep told me were “one time use parts.” I cross referenced those to the Technical Service Bulletin regarding this engine issue, and all of those parts were listed in the TSB as items that would need to be replaced as part of the repair for this issue. What this told me is that my suspicion was correct - the dealership did not quote those extra parts to Ford. I’m not sure if they guy forgot and then was trying to cover his butt by getting me to pay for the extra parts, or if they were trying to make some extra money due to the additional markup they would get by selling the parts to me vice Ford. Either way, I found the situation extremely shady.

 

One last thing 2015 - when talking to Ford get them to commit to paying for your rental car (if they offer to help). Ford reimbursed me for the cost of my rental vehicle while my vehicle was being repaired. They ended up sending me a prepaid visa gift card for the amount of the total cost of the rental.

[2015Edge2015]

16 hours ago, edkene said:

Hey 2015,

 

I was 100% out of warranty. I was at 64,000 miles and 5 years and two months of ownership (warranty is 60,000 miles or 5 years). 

 

Thanks for the reply. Good information! And yeah... 156k miles will probably not be in my favor but knowing these engines are almost all failing... might still help someone us with higher mileage. I ended up driving the car to the dealer since a rough IDLE came today around mid day. Would not go away like when at start up with the coolant in it. Even tried changing  #3 plug in which my scanner pointed as misfiring.  But it didn't fix it... rough idle. So just stopped there and took it to the dealer for them to diagnose it. Well ... let's see what happens now. 

Edited March 12, 2022 by 2015Edge2015

[2015Edge2015]

Just got quoted 6978.00$ to replace to a long block.    hating this car with all the issues.

 

For those that did it, did you go to dealer or independant shop? And how much? I've seen people say 5200$ to 8000$. Just depends where you are. So maybe post location and cost. I'm facing this atm. Thinking of doing it since it's far cheaper than getting another car loan. 

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

9 hours ago, 2015Edge2015 said:

Just got quoted 6978.00$ to replace to a long block.    hating this car with all the issues.

 

For those that did it, did you go to dealer or independant shop? And how much? I've seen people say 5200$ to 8000$. Just depends where you are. So maybe post location and cost. I'm facing this atm. Thinking of doing it since it's far cheaper than getting another car loan. 

@2015Edge2015 what mileage on your vehicle? sorry if i missed it in this thread ...

 

if under 100K, or if just out of the powertrain warranty period, you can work with ford corporate to at least get part of the cost reimbursed. there might be law firms out there that will mediate for you as well.

[todd92]

What's a VEP engine?

[2015Edge2015]

On 3/23/2022 at 9:05 AM, WWWPerfA_ZN0W said:

@2015Edge2015 what mileage on your vehicle? sorry if i missed it in this thread ...

 

if under 100K, or if just out of the powertrain warranty period, you can work with ford corporate to at least get part of the cost reimbursed. there might be law firms out there that will mediate for you as well.

In talk with one atm. Let's see what happens. Hey, does this car have a drop in thermostat?  Or part of the housing?  I'm going to add blue devil to try to see if I get more miles. One guy had luck and got about a year more with no bad aide effects.

Edited March 30, 2022 by 2015Edge2015

[enigma-2]

On 3/29/2022 at 6:44 AM, todd92 said:

What's a VEP engine?

 

These engines are made either at Cleveland (USA) or Valencia, Spain (VEP). The 2.0 USA engines have aquired a very poor reputatiom for quality.

Edited March 31, 2022 by enigma-2

[Walby]

Same problem with my 2017 Edge Titanium.  This is round 3 for me.  in the 1990's I bought a Jeep Cherokee.  As I passed the warranty period, the inline 6 began rattling - it sounded like a diesel.  Ran fine, just sounded bad.  Chrysler dealer looked at it, and without even asking Chrysler sent a short block and paid for the change over.  Traded a 2008 GMC Acadia for my 2017 Edge, 120,000+ miles in check engine light came on.  Timing chain had stretched and could no longer adjust the timing in under load.  $3,600 repair because the engine had to be completely dropped out of the car to get to the timing chain.  One request and GMC paid the bill.  Here we are on round 3 and many of you are reporting that Ford is balking...  Hope this isn't strike 3 for me.

 

One of you mentioned contacting a lawyer who is in arbitration with Ford.  Anyone have a list or can recommend such a lawyer to me?

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

i had mentioned a company referred to me for arbitration but they no longer seem to be handling such cases.

 

maybe @1004ron can help?

[2015Edge2015]

On 4/12/2022 at 1:20 PM, Walby said:

Same problem with my 2017 Edge Titanium.  This is round 3 for me.  in the 1990's I bought a Jeep Cherokee.  As I passed the warranty period, the inline 6 began rattling - it sounded like a diesel.  Ran fine, just sounded bad.  Chrysler dealer looked at it, and without even asking Chrysler sent a short block and paid for the change over.  Traded a 2008 GMC Acadia for my 2017 Edge, 120,000+ miles in check engine light came on.  Timing chain had stretched and could no longer adjust the timing in under load.  $3,600 repair because the engine had to be completely dropped out of the car to get to the timing chain.  One request and GMC paid the bill.  Here we are on round 3 and many of you are reporting that Ford is balking...  Hope this isn't strike 3 for me.

 

One of you mentioned contacting a lawyer who is in arbitration with Ford.  Anyone have a list or can recommend such a lawyer to me?

Yep. Same boat. Bought American to support our country. Had a Saturn SUV. Torque converter gave up with a rattle inside tranny. Put a torque and traded for a 2011 edge. Loved it. But coolant inside oil on the 3.5 l engine made me trade it in asap for a 2015 edge. Now  hit with another coolant issue. Coolant on cylinder 1,3 and 4. Drinks water.  Last week added blue devil as a last resort since dealer said 7k for long block. So far its holding but i think my water pump paid the price. Hearing it whine a little and water level dropping slightly again. Will have to keep a eye on it. Called Ford Corporate, they said nothing tgey can do but to notify NTH place... forget the name. The National Highway Transportation place. And said to reported so it gets linked to my vin and hopefully it gets a recall. So... pretty much told to pound sand. Lol.  So here i am debating if i should give Ford another shot. Nawww..... I'm done. Currently looking at the new 2022 Rav4 Hybrids... they look so much like the edges. Really want one of those now! Check them out if you want a similar body styling.  I think the interior is CRAP compared to the Edges... but I'm DONE with these coolant issues. 

 

P.S.    Are the water pumps easy to do on the 2.0L engine? Anyone know?

Edited April 22, 2022 by 2015Edge2015

[2015Edge2015]

LOL. My transmission just gave out. Ok........ I'm done. Nice interacting with you guys through out the years. Good luck all!

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

7 hours ago, 2015Edge2015 said:

LOL. My transmission just gave out. Ok........ I'm done. Nice interacting with you guys through out the years. Good luck all!

sorry to hear. flexplate issue?

[2015Edge2015]

2 hours ago, WWWPerfA_ZN0W said:

sorry to hear. flexplate issue?

No. Torque converter and highly recommended to rebuild it. There's a slight noise coming from the inside. 2 shops already looked at it and both said absolutely rebuild it. 4400$ to do it from a independant shop.  One of the shop was the dealer. They quoted me for all the job of Tranny and Long block. 21k . Hahahahahhaha! Found it hilarious. Loved driving these cars since 2013. But I must part now. 

[2015Edge2015]

Update. Had the tranny fixed. :). 4400$ and it was rebuild with a new torque converter. Runs good again. Also experimented with Blue Devil Head Gasket Sealant. It actually worked and still working. Been 2 weeks since I followed the instructions on the bottle and CEL cleared and isn't loosing water. I know it's your miles will vary with these products.  But did read somewhere a guy used it for his ecoboost and lasted 9 months. Crossing my fingers. This car deserves another shot! 

[Haz]

Models:

Ford 2015-2018 Edge
2017-2019 Escape	Built on or before 16-May-2019
2017-2019 Fusion	Built on or before 8-Apr-2019
Lincoln 2017-2019 MKC	Built on or before 18-Apr-2019
2017-2019 MKZ	Built on or before 8-Apr-2019

 

Summary

 

This article supersedes TSB 22-2133 to update the Parts List.

 

Issue: Some 2015-2018 Edge and 2017-2019 Fusion/MKZ/Escape/MKC vehicles equipped with a 2.0L EcoBoost engine may exhibit a low coolant level, white exhaust smoke and/or a runs rough condition with or without an illuminated malfunction indicator lamp (MIL). Diagnostic trouble codes (DTCs) may include P0300, P0301-P0304, P0316, P0217, P1285 and/or P1299 stored in powertrain control module (PCM). This may be due to coolant intrusion into the cylinder. To correct the condition, follow the Service Procedure to replace the long block engine assembly.

 

Action: Follow the Service Procedure to correct the condition on vehicles that meet all of the following criteria:

 

• One of the following vehicles:

- 2015-2018 Edge

- 2017-2019 Fusion/MKZ built on or before 8-Apr-2019

- 2017-2019 Escape built on or before 16-May-2019

- 2017-2019 MKC built on or before 18-Apr-2019

 

• 2.0L EcoBoost engine

• Presence of coolant in the engine cylinders, white exhaust smoke and/or a runs rough condition (with or without an illuminated MIL)

 

Below is PDF dowload link for full TSB 22-2229 document, which provides Service Action parts lists for all included models...

 

TSB 22-2229 - 2015-2018 Edge + Other Models, 2.0L EcoBoost - Coolant In Cylinders, White Exhaust Smoke And_Or Illuminated MIL.pdf

[akirby]

But no extended warranty??

[todd92]

TSB means Ford is paying for it.  No need for an extended warranty.

[jmr061]

1 hour ago, todd92 said:

TSB means Ford is paying for it.  No need for an extended warranty.

 

That isn't what TSB means.  TSB's are only covered under warranty if the vehicle is under some sort of manufacturer warranty whether it be bumper to bumper or extended.  If the vehicle isn't under warranty, a TSB is paid for by the consumer.  A TSB is not a recall or customer service satisfaction bulletin.

[omar302]

1 hour ago, todd92 said:

TSB means Ford is paying for it.  No need for an extended warranty.

 

Nope. 

 

Ford pays for a job under a TSB only if the vehicle is within the warranty period. The TSB generally indicates a solution to some issues outside the normal diagnosis procedures, mostly something more common than normal and a fix outside the usual methods.