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My Kids Chose Japanese Competitors

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My wife and I purchased our Edge early November 2017. About a week before, my daughter and her husband purchased a new Toyota Highlander. And last week, my son and his wife bought a new Honda Pilot. The current issue of Consumer Reports lists all three gasoline versions tied with the same rating (the hybrid Highlander is one point higher). There are more seats in the others but you can't match the technology and luxury of the Edge. To each his own I guess.

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All three are great vehicles. I thinkk the Edge is a much better looking vehicle

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Agreed. All are great vehicles. Some folks like vanilla, some like chocolate. I've had 3 Fords because they fit with my lifestyle and what I want in a vehicle NOW. As a younger man I had a couple of Honda Accord sedans and a few Lexuses (Lexi?) but they fit my lifestyle then. But I agree that the technology and better vehicle for the money is the Ford.

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Reliability is definitely important but to me if it’s a but ugly vehicle that I can’t even stand to admire every time I walk up to it and it’s the most reliable car in the world. I won’t buy it. Like chefduane said. The Edge fits in my current lifestyle and I really like the looks. As a bonus I like the Edge better then the Mercedes it replaced.

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Tell your kids to wake up and buy American made products.

 

MAGA.

Edited by IWRBB
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I have a Camaro RS. Son has a Mustang GT. Son-in-law has a Camaro SS. I don't need to convince them about American cars. And funny, but our Edge was built about 100 miles from where my Camaro was assembled - both near Toronto in Ontario. So both are (North) American cars.

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Your right about the Highlander, it's one ugly car.

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Tell your kids to wake up and buy American made products.

 

MAGA.

 

Highlander is made in Indiana and Pilot is made in Alabama. The Edge is not made in America.

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Highlander is made in Indiana and Pilot is made in Alabama. The Edge is not made in America.

 

 

Maybe when you look at one particular vehicle you can argue that- but, overall you and I would be better off if all American bought cars sold by American companies versus if all American bought cars from foreign car companies, no matter where the parts are made and the cars are assembled. Do you agree what that statement?

 

Toyota's and Honda's profits do not benefit Americans. Jobs are one thing, but when you make cars and sell cars, you make a LOT of money. There's a reason there are so many car companies and models available- it's a very profitable product to sell. Basically, it's the most expensive thing 95% of people ever buy except for a house. Ford has sold tens of billions of dollars worth of just F150 Raptors since 2010. It didn't cost them even half that to design and build them.

 

Those profits can either stay in the US and buy more US products, or they can go overseas and buy products made overseas. Yes, ideally, Ford would not have any assembly plants in Canada or Mexico, but they do. However, Ford has a LOT more auto assembly plants in the US than Honda or Toyota overall and cherry picking a couple vehicles assembly locations like you did is exactly that, cherry picking one example.

 

Don't forget it's not just hard parts either. Where do all the engineers who design the cars live? Is that salary going to American engineers or Japanese engineers How about the accountants? All of the people who support the massive overhead of running a worldwide automotive manufacturing giant- all of those jobs can either be ours, or theirs.

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A lot of those engineers are Americans as well as the factory and the sales team. But that wasn't the point. You said "American made" and by that standard the Pilot and Highlander are American made while the Edge isn't. The other stuff is a different argument.

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Maybe when you look at one particular vehicle you can argue that- but, overall you and I would be better off if all American bought cars sold by American companies versus if all American bought cars from foreign car companies, no matter where the parts are made and the cars are assembled. Do you agree what that statement?

 

Toyota's and Honda's profits do not benefit Americans. Jobs are one thing, but when you make cars and sell cars, you make a LOT of money. There's a reason there are so many car companies and models available- it's a very profitable product to sell. Basically, it's the most expensive thing 95% of people ever buy except for a house. Ford has sold tens of billions of dollars worth of just F150 Raptors since 2010. It didn't cost them even half that to design and build them.

 

Those profits can either stay in the US and buy more US products, or they can go overseas and buy products made overseas. Yes, ideally, Ford would not have any assembly plants in Canada or Mexico, but they do. However, Ford has a LOT more auto assembly plants in the US than Honda or Toyota overall and cherry picking a couple vehicles assembly locations like you did is exactly that, cherry picking one example.

 

Don't forget it's not just hard parts either. Where do all the engineers who design the cars live? Is that salary going to American engineers or Japanese engineers How about the accountants? All of the people who support the massive overhead of running a worldwide automotive manufacturing giant- all of those jobs can either be ours, or theirs.

I totally agree with ya and have always purchased my vehicles from American companies. Just about purchased a 4runner and a BMW years ago but just couldn't convince myself that it was OK to do. Kinda sad that China has a "Buy Chinese" campaign going and Americans gave up on "Buy American" a long time ago. Heck, I remember when you wouldn't dare park a Toyota in a Ford or Chevy plant parking lot.

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Highlander is made in Indiana and Pilot is made in Alabama. The Edge is not made in America.

My Edge was made in Canada. That’s closer to America then China. I’m good with that.

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Maybe when you look at one particular vehicle you can argue that- but, overall you and I would be better off if all American bought cars sold by American companies versus if all American bought cars from foreign car companies, no matter where the parts are made and the cars are assembled. Do you agree what that statement?

 

 

 

Nope, not at all. I'm not an American. But any American can buy stock in Toyota or Honda, and thus benefit from their profits. I don't know how much of Ford is owned by foreign investors, but I'm sure they're a significant number. So tracking the profits is not nearly as simple as you make it sound. Even if it was, the best automotive companies are earning ~10% margins, so at best the profit part of a sale is only 10%. The other 90% of the income all goes back to the value chain of the vehicle, including the manufacturing facility, the parts and the overhead. If you have a 401K or any other investment in any kind of mutual fund, chances are some of Toyota and Honda's profits are going straight to you.

 

As far as the engineering, it's probably about 60% of the Highlander and Pilot that are engineered in America. While the Edge is probably closer to 80%, other Ford's like the Focus, Escape are only about 20%. All automakers are global now, a smart business balances the markets they sell in with the production they have there, so the simple view of "buy American" really doesn't make any sense.

Edited by Waldo
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For those of you old enough to remember, the influx of foreign made vehicles was a wake up call to the Big Three when it happened in the 70s and it helped make American cars much better and worth buying. Before that, American small cars were crap like Pintos and Chevettes while the big cars were inefficient land yachts. The popularity of inexpensive and efficient imported small cars forced American OEMs to start building better cars (although it took them a couple of decades to do so).

 

I buy the vehicle that best suits my needs regardless of origin. I have a Mustang that I love, and I've had Camaros, Firebirds, etc. all of my life - but I got rid of the Edge in favor of a Kia Sorento because it is a better vehicle for me right now. I'll buy an American vehicle if it's equal to or better than a foreign alternative but if everyone subscribed to the "buy American" ideal then the OEMs wouldn't have as much competition and we'd regress to the old days of them producing what they want instead of what the consumer wants. Competition is always good for the consumer whether it's domestic or foreign.

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Wow, such passion. I've driven a Sorrento for a few hundred miles and sorry, but there is no comparison.

 

>>Competition is always good for the consumer

No argument there.

 

Both of my kids opted for a 3 row car. We have no need of that. Our previous vehicle was a Ford Escape, which never needed service. I don't know how a Japanese/Korean vehicle can beat that.

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Whether you prefer the Edge or the Sorento (or any other comparable vehicle) is a matter of what features are important to you at the time. The point is that you have that choice if you don't simply "buy American" without evaluating the options.

 

In our case, the '13 Edge Ecoboost Limited vs the '15 Sorento EX V6 was an easy choice. The Kia has all the luxury features we wanted (leather, heated/ventilated seats, etc.), more cargo capacity including under-floor storage, gets much better mileage, has a 10 year warranty, and has a decent infotainment system (frankly the '13 MFT was crap although recent versions are much improved). There are some things that the Edge did better but overall my wife loves the Sorento and hated the Edge so the choice was obvious for me - divorce is way too expensive. :doh:

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We have a 2016 Edge SEL and a 2016 Honda Odyssey EXL, my wife drives the Odyssey. We bought them one day after the other.

 

My wife is very jealous of my Edge, the technology is vastly superior to that of her Odyssey. I hate the navigation on the Odyssey, very cumbersome to use and the maps are hard to read.

 

When the grandchildren grow up, she wants to get a Sorento or an Edge. That will be in about two years, we'll see what the cars look like then.

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The Wizard is spot on. American auto companies starting in the 60's only saw their customers as dollar signs so they came up with the marketing strategy of "planned obsolescence." Cars were designed to reinforce the need for the public to buy a new car every 2 years. Imports blew up the American auto industry with better gas mileage, cars that lasted and the pursuit of innovations that the American companies viewed as a waste of time, money and resources. This isn't an opinion either. There are plenty of books written by those responsible for this describing the production and marketing philosophies of the time. To make matters even worse they pulled off one of biggest slight of hands in history with successfully placing the blame on unions for the decisions they made. Unions were nothing more than people who went to work and did what they were told just like everyone else. Unfortunately it's a strategy that has been adopted and expanded to blame any convenient group for anyone's lot in lot which they usually brought upon themselves in the first place.

 

If you like a car that is made to see an odometer with a reading over 100,000 miles you owe nothing to the US auto industry for that.

 

IWRBB, As a disabled vet MAGA is an insult and I don't know any others that don't feel the same way. All the promises to vets were just another lie. I can't express enough how much I appreciate organizations like Wounded Warriors but why in the hell are they necessary? I've been fortunate but too many haven't been so why in the f___ is the care and standard of living of disabled vets left in the hands of donations and benevolence of others? MAGA is really MMGA, Make "ME" great again for a bunch of whiners feeling sorry for themselves. Even worse, most MAGAers support those that put in place the policies that they're feeling sorry for themselves over. Remember, "A rising tide raises all boats?" Tell me, how many tides come from below the boats and how many come from rain trickled down on the boats? I can tell you what's really trickling down on you. Henry Ford learned this the hard way. When he finally raised wages to $5 a day, the sales of Fords soared faster than at any other time in Ford's history.

 

Also, the location of a companies home office is irrelevant. Corporate profits are realized in 2 ways. First is in operations. Bankrolling the cash needed for current and future plans. Second, the rest is realized through the distribution of stock dividends. That's a generic short cut because there are also bonds and different types of stocks but it still comes down to profits to those that have invested in the companies. THERE ARE NO BORDERS TO STOCK OWNERSHIP. Your statement is a statement of the lack of understanding you have of how cash flows through an economy. You're ire should be focused on the recent, massive corporate welfare enacted as a tax cut. The hope that any of the giveaway is going to trickle down to you is a big, so big, probably the biggest ever pipedream laid on this country. The money that would have been another car or two in your future has been given away and you will never recover it.

 

My apologies if I've overstepped some forum boundaries with this but honestly I think I've already paid for the right to speak my mind. I didn't and would never let someone else take my place because I believed I was better and I deserved it. IWRBB, I'm fine with you being angry over this as long as you at least think about it.

 

Edit: 2014 was handy. 2014 Ford made 2 billion in sale profits. Ford Credit made 1.9 billion in North America alone. Where you get the idea that Ford is making billions off the raptor needs explaining.

Edited by I'manedgeowner
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Corporations and businesses don't pay taxes - we do. Every dollar of tax paid by a business comes from the people who buy products or services from that business and that is us. Add a $10K tax to every car sold and every car's price would go up $10K.

 

A high tax rate makes it much harder for businesses to expand and for new businesses to start. For every expansion or new business there is a business case that says it costs $X and we can make $Y. E.g. let's say it costs Ford $2B to expand a factory and they stand to make an extra $3B in profits over the life of that factory. At a 40% tax rate they only net $1.8B which makes it a losing proposition and they wouldn't do it. But at 20% they net $2.4B and it's a positive business case. That's why reducing the corporate tax rate is important and will result in more jobs over time. It's true that short term you won't see immediate jobs created but longer term you will. Not to mention attracting companies to the US that would have gone overseas. If you were looking to move to one of two counties and you liked both equally well but one had property taxes of $6K/yr and the other had $3K/yr wouldn't you take the $3K/yr all else being equal? We are competing with other countries for jobs now and a high tax rate makes us non-competitive.

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I'manedgeowner:

 

I'm not angry. You can rationalize it all you want- but buying foreign cars is not good for America, plain and simple. You know, I know it, everybody knows it.

 

You have a beef against the US government due to their treatment of you as a disabled vet? I'm sure you are entitled to that complaint. However, the "America" in MAGA is us- all of us, the people. Not the government. Our government *is* the best in the world in it's founding principles, but since we are the most powerful and richest nation on Earth, it's turned into a beast that is out of control. We need to get it under control. We need to get our spending under control. We need to stop giving our money to the rest of the world while our shit crumbles apart.

 

Economic policy is 100% debatable- there is no proven right answer, so I won't go there at all.

 

And oh, by the way- I'm not a lazy whiner. I work hard from 7 am to midnight nearly everyday. Maybe a re-evaluation is in order for you of who is actually trying to make this country great again versus who is trying to turn it into a giant socialist hellhole serving the rest of the world's population.

Edited by IWRBB

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I'm not angry. You can rationalize it all you want- but buying foreign cars is not good for America, plain and simple. You know, I know it, everybody knows it.

 

 

No, that is a huge over-simplification and not true in many cases. I've already pointed out what terrible products were produced by American auto makers before foreign competition came along. The same is true of electronics and many other fields. Left to their own devices, American companies (and admittedly, those of other countries as well) will build the cheapest product they can get away with selling.

 

But beyond that, in today's global economy it's difficult to determine whether a foreign owned company that produces product here is better or worse for the country than an American owned company. For example, a few years ago when Honda Gold Wings were being made in Ohio, there was more American content in them and more money staying in the US from their sales than from that icon of American manufacturing, Harley Davidson. Most of that profit stayed with American Honda in California and with American investors through stock on the NYSE... of course some went to the parent company in Japan but on balance it was a great benefit to America. Similar situations exist with foreign auto makers building vehicles in the US. They employ lots of people, invest lots of money, and much of the earnings stay here. It's no longer a simple case of "foreign companies take money offshore while American companies keep it here".

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No, that is a huge over-simplification and not true in many cases. I've already pointed out what terrible products were produced by American auto makers before foreign competition came along. The same is true of electronics and many other fields. Left to their own devices, American companies (and admittedly, those of other countries as well) will build the cheapest product they can get away with selling.

 

But beyond that, in today's global economy it's difficult to determine whether a foreign owned company that produces product here is better or worse for the country than an American owned company. For example, a few years ago when Honda Gold Wings were being made in Ohio, there was more American content in them and more money staying in the US from their sales than from that icon of American manufacturing, Harley Davidson. Most of that profit stayed with American Honda in California and with American investors through stock on the NYSE... of course some went to the parent company in Japan but on balance it was a great benefit to America. Similar situations exist with foreign auto makers building vehicles in the US. They employ lots of people, invest lots of money, and much of the earnings stay here. It's no longer a simple case of "foreign companies take money offshore while American companies keep it here".

 

Well said. And let's not forget that the Edge and MKX are made in Canada, not the US. Fusion and Fiesta are made in Mexico not the US. Ecosport is made in India. One could argue that Toyotas and Hondas built, designed and sold in the US at American owned dealerships are much more beneficial to the economy than the ones I just mentioned.

 

It's definitely no longer black and white.

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I'manedgeowner:

 

I'm not angry. You can rationalize it all you want- but buying foreign cars is not good for America, plain and simple. You know, I know it, everybody knows it.

 

 

Here's a hypothetical but realistic scenario:

 

Ford makes $10 billion profit in a year. They invest $8 billion of that into new factories in China, and pass on $2 billion to American investors.

Toyota makes $10 billion profit in a year. They invest $8 billion of that into new factories in America, and pass on $2 billion to Japanese investors.

 

Which one is "better for America"?

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akirby,

 

I understand your point but let me explain why it's misguided. The cost of doing business or capital outlays are not taxed in this country. Granted, sometimes it is deferred so it becomes a time value issue but still, ultimately not taxed. Also with Ford for example, Ford Motor Credit makes more for the company than the production of vehicles. Profits here comes from interest which is a highly competitive business but consider this, who is paying that interest? People that sought them out whereas with tax cuts, everybody pays should you use the service or not? What is fair about that?

 

Similarly, the gas tax and fees tied to vehicle plates that goes to road maintenance. Well over 70% of the money collected comes from cars well more than 90% of road maintenance is necessary because of trucks. You can easily look this up. Trucks should be paying that 90% and that cost should be passed along to their customers. That way the people causing the damage are the ones paying for it and further, they can pass that added cost to their customers. Instead we have a tax policy that is geared toward the "power in numbers." We take a dime from a thousand people instead of $100 from the one instigating the damage. Start adding this up and you are looking at 10 to 20% of your income a dime at a time going to support others. This is just a simple example for explanation and not specific about dimes.

 

Last example, We have many mining companies on federal land (our land) that pay nothing more than a couple of hundred dollars a year for permits to access the land and we get nothing for it. This is all about commodities so no one is getting a price break because of the lack of an underlying cost involved. Even worse, the rules to access prohibit you or me from getting a chance at that access. You have to have a demonstrated ability, usually financially, to access the resource. The thing about that is you have to be able to do that whether you pay a fair market price or not.

 

You're not wrong about pass through costs but let's have those that get the benefit of the goods or services pay for it. I know people that have never owned a new car in their life so why should they subsidize you or me getting one?

 

IWRBB,

 

I'm sorry to say, but you don't get it. YOU ARE THE GOVERNMENT. Politicians are nothing more than the people we asked for. Furthermore, a country is not some geopolitical area, it's the people. Michigan didn't make any cars. Henry Ford's ideas and his employees did.

 

Also, you conflate monetary and fiscal policy in such I way I can only quote The Wizard, "over simplification." You falsely lay blame on problems you see. I'll repeat what I said earlier, the unions didn't make bad cars, the car companies did. Furthermore, while unions tried to save jobs in this country, they were shut down by those now complaining about job loses. Go figure.

 

And no, I'm not angry with the government, I'm angry with those who can't see the obvious BS, rationalize with "Mulligans" and can't see that America has always been great regardless of the current mania running it.

Edited by I'manedgeowner

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I don’t understand how tax cuts are subsidizing car sales.

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