Poor trans shifting theory investigation

[Fingernip]

2 hours ago, Jombi said:

Yes but you still want to stay in gear and get that last 1500 rpm from 4000 to 5500.  Just because the HP isn't at peak after 4000 doesn't mean it's time to shift--you're still accelerating greatly between 4000 & redline so given the overhead of the shift you want to use that all up.  I'd rather spend that last half second or whatever it takes to get from 4000 to 5500 and make the most of what the transmission spent on shifting time--and then do the upshift.   If every shift was only using the rpm range from 3000 (or a little above) to 4000, you'd need a lot more gears and the overhead of shift time would kill the 1/4 mile time.   

 

I just came home from an appointment and just trying to watch the tach, I see that the sweet spot (and this is with Livernois so it will differ from stock) is around 3500--that's when I feel the Gs come on string and that is the point where I want the upshift to begin.  Then I'll take that shift and ride it all the way to just before redline--and ideally for acceleration runs each shift should be set to so the next gear starts in the 3000/3500 range--whatever that sweet spot is.  But being a multi-use vehicle, it has those extra gears for towing, etc., so it's not perfect.  I'm going to find some time and try some runs using the manual paddle and see if double-tapping the upshift will go to the one I want without delay.  I really wish the normal D or S modes would clearly display the actual gear we're in so I'd have a better idea of what's going on in non-paddle mode, because I'm still not sure which gear it's skipping but given the ratios shown--I'm OK with it skipping the 3 or 4 gear because they're so close and I think it needs to skip one of those.

--Jim

I just did some quick math to help the discussion further. I'm sure there are alot of other variables and potentially even errors. Feel free to look it over and see what you think. From my calculations though using our known final drive, tire diameter and the 1st 6 gears we should have shift points under 5000 for maximum effectiveness. revving beyond 5k just shortens the effectiveness of the next gear and pulls it further out of the power-band. Average shifts should be 4556RPM according to my math (please someone check it)

Gear Ratios.xlsx

[IWRBB]

By short shifting at under 5000 RPMs you are giving up the mechanical advantage of the lower gear before you have to.

 

If it was faster in the quarter to shift sooner, Ford would have had it shift sooner.

[Fingernip]

13 minutes ago, IWRBB said:

By short shifting at under 5000 RPMs you are giving up the mechanical advantage of the lower gear before you have to.

 

If it was faster in the quarter to shift sooner, Ford would have had it shift sooner.

It isn’t faster as is. I suspect Ford protects the trans by shifting outside of peak power and likely torque targets help keep it in the safe zone. It may be part of why an SQ5 is faster with similar specs but a better transmission. 

[Fingernip]

double post

Edited January 14, 2020 by Fingernip

[Perblue]

11 hours ago, Fingernip said:

I just did some quick math to help the discussion further. I'm sure there are alot of other variables and potentially even errors. Feel free to look it over and see what you think. From my calculations though using our known final drive, tire diameter and the 1st 6 gears we should have shift points under 5000 for maximum effectiveness. revving beyond 5k just shortens the effectiveness of the next gear and pulls it further out of the power-band. Average shifts should be 4556RPM according to my math (please someone check it)

Gear Ratios.xlsx

 

The factor you are missing is the increased torque/power that you are getting from the previous gear. There is a reason why cars are dyno'd as close to 1:1 as possible. Gears multiply torque so shifting before 5k can actually hurt because shifting into a higher gear puts you into less power because of the higher gear multiplier than you are losing in the higher rpm. Same with hp since (torque*speed)/5252=hp. Using Livernois's dyno'd wheel results at 3200 rpm, 4000rpm(peak hp) and 5500 rpm

 

1     1,613torque    983hp     1501torque   1143hp     838torque     878hp

2     1134torque     691hp     1055torque     804hp     589torque     617hp

3     1033torque     630hp      962torque      732hp     537torque     562hp

4      662torque      403hp      616torque      470hp     344torque     360hp

5      544torque      331hp      472torque      360hp     263torque     276hp

6      360torque      217hp      335torque      256hp     187torque     195hp

7      266torque      162hp      248torque      189hp     138torque     145hp

8      223torque      136hp      208torque      158hp     116torque     121hp

 

You can see that there isn't a gear worth shifting early in and that 2 to 3 being as small as it is can still benefit.

 

[Fingernip]

3 hours ago, Perblue said:

 

The factor you are missing is the increased torque/power that you are getting from the previous gear. There is a reason why cars are dyno'd as close to 1:1 as possible. Gears multiply torque so shifting before 5k can actually hurt because shifting into a higher gear puts you into less power because of the higher gear multiplier than you are losing in the higher rpm. Same with hp since (torque*speed)/5252=hp. Using Livernois's dyno'd wheel results at 3200 rpm, 4000rpm(peak hp) and 5500 rpm

 

1     1,613torque    983hp     1501torque   1143hp     838torque     878hp

2     1134torque     691hp     1055torque     804hp     589torque     617hp

3     1033torque     630hp      962torque      732hp     537torque     562hp

4      662torque      403hp      616torque      470hp     344torque     360hp

5      544torque      331hp      472torque      360hp     263torque     276hp

6      360torque      217hp      335torque      256hp     187torque     195hp

7      266torque      162hp      248torque      189hp     138torque     145hp

8      223torque      136hp      208torque      158hp     116torque     121hp

 

You can see that there isn't a gear worth shifting early in and that 2 to 3 being as small as it is can still benefit.

 

I think I understand. I failed to factor the torque even outside the peak powerband in a lower gear vs the torque within the powerband with less multiplication provided by a higher gear. The only issue though now with a 5500rpm shift point is the close gear ratio has you theoretically enter 3rd gear at 5000rpm at 45mph and shift again at 50mph. I guess that is where the skipped gear comes into play. Skipping 2nd shifts into 3rd at 31mph and 3500rpm (Theoretically).

 

Edited January 15, 2020 by Fingernip

[Perblue]

Pretty much. I can't figure out why they decided to do 2nd and 3rd so close other than maybe towing. Even then though they could have opened it up another .2 or .3 and it would have been fine I'm sure. Heh maybe it was to save space inside the transmission and/or they use 2nd or 3rd with a reduction gear in order make one of the overdrive gears, since transmissions don't truly have 8-10 individual gears internally.

[boosted_st]

On 1/15/2020 at 1:23 PM, Perblue said:

Pretty much. I can't figure out why they decided to do 2nd and 3rd so close other than maybe towing. Even then though they could have opened it up another .2 or .3 and it would have been fine I'm sure. Heh maybe it was to save space inside the transmission and/or they use 2nd or 3rd with a reduction gear in order make one of the overdrive gears, since transmissions don't truly have 8-10 individual gears internally.

 

If everyone has the same as I do which they are stating is "normal" where there is no RPM drop from 2nd to 3rd it wouldn't even make sense for towing. It's basically 3rd is a useless gear that only causes a really poor 2nd to 4th transition at that point. I've wondered if a transmission shop could do anything about it (changing it maybe), but again, I shouldn't HAVE to do that after spending 50K either. I fully regret buying this vehicle that I am stuck with until I am "ok" with taking a hit financially to get rid of it.

[Perblue]

5 minutes ago, boosted_st said:

 

If everyone has the same as I do which they are stating is "normal" where there is no RPM drop from 2nd to 3rd it wouldn't even make sense for towing.

 

This is ignoring an earlier post I made stating I see a drop of around 400 rpms, so is not normal. I'm not able to make a video with no way yo mount a camera or phone and I'm not willing to risk holding my phone with our $500 fine and instant loss of license for distracted driving. So sorry I'm of no more help to you.

[boosted_st]

23 minutes ago, Perblue said:

 

This is ignoring an earlier post I made stating I see a drop of around 400 rpms, so is not normal. I'm not able to make a video with no way yo mount a camera or phone and I'm not willing to risk holding my phone with our $500 fine and instant loss of license for distracted driving. So sorry I'm of no more help to you.

 

Sorry if that's what it seemed like I was going for, it wasn't. I understand not wanting to take the risk of holding a phone. The dealerships just don't care what I tell them about others not having this issue (told them this after your post) and just revert to "if the computer doesn't show an issue, then tough luck". I have wasted so much time dealing with this where I instantly get annoyed the moment I get in the car. And Ford's attitude toward it all is "who cares, you are one person". 

[Perblue]

17 minutes ago, boosted_st said:

 

Sorry if that's what it seemed like I was going for, it wasn't. I understand not wanting to take the risk of holding a phone. The dealerships just don't care what I tell them about others not having this issue (told them this after your post) and just revert to "if the computer doesn't show an issue, then tough luck". I have wasted so much time dealing with this where I instantly get annoyed the moment I get in the car. And Ford's attitude toward it all is "who cares, you are one person". 

 

That's unfortunate they are being like that. I actually don't like ford personally honestly, but we bought our first edge used from our local ford dealership because it fit our budget and needs. We bought our ST because of how they looked after problems we had with the first one and they've been consistent with this one. By far the best dealership I've dealt with otherwise I would have seriously considered other options.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Perblue

[boosted_st]

1 minute ago, Perblue said:

 

That's unfortunate they are being like that. I actually don't like ford personally honestly, but we bought our first edge used because it fit our budget and needs. We bought our ST because of how they looked after problems we had with the first one and they've been consistent with this one. By far the best dealership I've dealt with otherwise I would have seriously considered other options.

 

I can say at this point I will never buy Ford again, and will discourage anyone from doing so as well after this. The only other vehicle I was really looking at would be the Audi SQ5, and with the options I would want, it would have been about 20K more than this was. 

[Perblue]

2 minutes ago, boosted_st said:

 

I can say at this point I will never buy Ford again, and will discourage anyone from doing so as well after this. The only other vehicle I was really looking at would be the Audi SQ5, and with the options I would want, it would have been about 20K more than this was. 

 

I also considered the f-pace and macan, but having no local dealers for them and having a good ford dealer local we went with the ST. Not considered the same class in ways but we weighed pros and cons and am still happy....so far.

[MENINBLK]

1 hour ago, boosted_st said:

...with the options I would want, it would have been about 20K more than this was. 

You will find this with just about every SUV on the market today. If you compare them all, the Edge has the most shoulder room of all and the best Safety rating as well. As long as your transmission shifts, drive it until the wheels fall off and enjoy it. Our transmission was a 6 speed with 2nd and 8th gear added on. If you really want out of it, advertise it online until you get someone who is willing to buy it from you at a price that is acceptable to you. Put a for sale sign on it. Go to your local Post Office and ask if anyone is interested in buying it from you.

We all know what we bought. We all enjoy getting what we paid for, and we all discuss the pros and cons of this vehicle, hoping that Ford will somehow get the message and not make the same mistakes in the future.

e.g.  Mustang Mark E.  Who puts a transmission in an electric vehicle ???   smh...

Edited January 17, 2020 by MENINBLK

[Jombi]

11 hours ago, boosted_st said:

 

I can say at this point I will never buy Ford again, and will discourage anyone from doing so as well after this. The only other vehicle I was really looking at would be the Audi SQ5, and with the options I would want, it would have been about 20K more than this was. 

I have been there, done that, but in the big picture a lot of these types of things fall on the dealership, and many if not most makes can have bad dealerships.  
 

I swore off ford years ago after getting stranded by a bad fuel pump.  This was in the late 80s before the internet but I used every resource I could—even my local library—to find the regional rep for Ford at the time because the dealer would only give me contacts that were basically customer-service shills who had no power, and of course were siding with the dealer.  
 

Anyway, I finally got a name and number, called the person, and started going into my story.  Because I was so upset and long-winded, he just politely stopped me and said “Let’s make this easier.  What are you asking for that will make this right?”.  I listed the towing bill, the repair bill, and rental car bill, the total at the time came to about $550.  He said “Done, let’s get your address and you’ll have a check in 7 days”.  I got my check, and was happy as a clam, and steered clear of that particular dealership forever, but have bought several Fords since.

 

Moral of the story—take your issue to Ford Corporate, not the dealership. 

[akirby]

11 hours ago, MENINBLK said:

e.g.  Mustang Mark E.  Who puts a transmission in an electric vehicle ???   smh...

 

If you mean the Mustang Mach E - it doesn't have a transmission.

 

If you mean the SEMA concept Mustang Lithium with a manual transmission - that was just a concept vehicle not meant for production.

 

BTW Porsche does put a 2 speed tranny in the Taycan.

Edited January 17, 2020 by akirby

[boosted_st]

I finally remembered to try if getting into the Test/Diag menu worked the same as my Focus ST did and it does. I was really hopping to find what gear was being used, but that wasn't available. I did find a screen that shows the speed and RPM as a digital readout though (attached photo). Since I was able to now see the number for the RPM I did a quick test around 35 mph on the way home looking at the difference between 2nd and 3rd and using this I could see a small drop in RPM. So maybe there really is no problem and it's just a poorly designed gear ratio setup (some may disagree, but 3rd gear is useless and shouldn't exist).

[Gadgetjq]

54 minutes ago, boosted_st said:

I finally remembered to try if getting into the Test/Diag menu

Well, that's interesting.  You got to that menu how?

 

[boosted_st]

1 hour ago, Gadgetjq said:

Well, that's interesting.  You got to that menu how?

 

 

Before starting the vehicle press and hold the OK on the left, start the vehicle and keep OK pressed until the menu is displayed (should be around 5 seconds or so). The downside is that you can't get out of the menu or to any of the normal menu's until you turn the car off and back on.

Edited January 17, 2020 by boosted_st

[jamie1073]

17 hours ago, boosted_st said:

I finally remembered to try if getting into the Test/Diag menu worked the same as my Focus ST did and it does. I was really hopping to find what gear was being used, but that wasn't available. I did find a screen that shows the speed and RPM as a digital readout though (attached photo). Since I was able to now see the number for the RPM I did a quick test around 35 mph on the way home looking at the difference between 2nd and 3rd and using this I could see a small drop in RPM. So maybe there really is no problem and it's just a poorly designed gear ratio setup (some may disagree, but 3rd gear is useless and shouldn't exist).

 

Nice.  I would like to point out that 2nd is the useless gear and not 3rd.  If you are flooring it from a stop you do not need 2nd since it only blips into it for a split second before going to 3rd where it continues to accelerate.  So if you kept 2nd and ditched the 3rd gear ratio and went into 4th then the vehicle would be slower to 60 not quicker.  Toss 2nd out and go into 3rd, since that is the same gear ratios as the Sport, and you would gain a split second to 60 due to the lack of the useless shift. 

[akirby]

I’m going to guess that they had to add it for marketing purposes so they can call it a 8 speed and that was the fastest and/or cheapest way to do it.

 

Thats the downside of starting with an existing tranny and not building a brand new one.

[TomCinMI]

On 1/13/2020 at 11:57 AM, boosted_st said:

 

... Pretty sure the vehicle has been at the dealer 5+ weeks since I bought it at the end of August 2019.

 

 

... totally makes sense to me and means their transmission specialist is talking out of his ass.

I'm at 10,700 miles, and my vehicle has required minimal time in the shop--never overnight.  You quite clearly have been dealing with an exceptionally lame dealership, which is not the same thing as Ford overall.  BTW, nice job of typing "transmission specialist" "with a straight face."  ?

 

I've had both TSB's for the PCM applied, have addressed the service notice about the adaptive headlamps, and tomorrow will be having the second of the two underbody shields and its hardware replaced to hopefully end the known issue of a flapping noise at higher speeds due to looseness; on that latter item, y'all may want to check the Forum's homepage a little later this afternoon, on the right side of the page under recent posts, since I'll be resurrecting the excellent thread about the underbody-shield problem and adding some worthwhile info.  Other than those pretty easy-fix experiences with the ST--in large part thanks to helpfulness on this Forum--I've been very happy with the vehicle.  Everything considered, Ford is a well above average manufacturer by today's standards, and everywhere in the industry are bad apples/jerks/duds in sales and service.  I love a lot about Ford quality, despite the frustrations which we've experienced with these two transmissions; I really like their emphasis on tech, especially safety tech (+ safety overall), as well as infotainment, to include SYNC 3 and FordPass

 

Having noticed the recent uptick in e-mailed notifications for this thread, I thought, huh, maybe a third tranny TSB has been issued, but evidently not.  I've been keeping my powder dry since having the second TSB's flash done around Nov. 1, letting the adaptive learning do its thing before I chime in again.  I have no current complaints.  The shifting is now plenty smooth for me.  Not having any flares/bucking or harsh engagements, although rarely I might perceive a slight clunk when transitioning from R to D, then I've asked myself, "Did you quite come to a full stop before putting it into D?"  I'm not a paddle-shift guy,  in part because we don't have mountains here; also I have other places to put my attention than on manually shifting, and paddle-shifting on this vehicle, at least before the TSB's came out, was largely reviewed as "not all that."  Post-TSB's, though, and after the Michigan ice subsides, I'll do some toying with the paddles.  I repeat that I'm happy with this vehicle, definitely all-in-all; it's fun to drive, looks great, and I'm keeping everything documented so I can make the best case at resale.

[STEdGeST]

On October 29, 2019 at 9:46 PM, STEdGeST said:

Hello folks,  Got the TSB completed on the ST. Picked up today and what a difference. Smooth engagement and much better shifting. Sport mode is awakened as well with better controls through the paddle shifts. To me, seems they tweaked more than just the tranny. Feels much more responsive and seems power band was increased. Slips rear tires at ease. Happy Camper right now. Folks if you're having the issues get this completed ASAP. Hope this helped. 

Well, this new TSB re-flash didn't last too long. Back to the dealership with the same transmission issue as in the beginning. Although I haven't driven very much, as of now with only 3100 miles since last July. Not to the issues, has lurching forward at low speeds, flare from 3rd to 4th (full disengage until pedal lift) only when cold, then catches next gear. The hesitation has resurfaced from a stop, like you have breaks applied (sluggish) and with traction control off. Service tech called me today, they not sure what it could be. Anyone here with an fix if you have experienced this issue. I believe it's the TC. Chime in. Thanks

[Fingernip]

2 hours ago, STEdGeST said:

Well, this new TSB re-flash didn't last too long. Back to the dealership with the same transmission issue as in the beginning. Although I haven't driven very much, as of now with only 3100 miles since last July. Not to the issues, has lurching forward at low speeds, flare from 3rd to 4th (full disengage until pedal lift) only when cold, then catches next gear. The hesitation has resurfaced from a stop, like you have breaks applied (sluggish) and with traction control off. Service tech called me today, they not sure what it could be. Anyone here with an fix if you have experienced this issue. I believe it's the TC. Chime in. Thanks

They replaced my TC for the bucking and flares. Ask them to disable the lockup solenoid and see if it still does it. 

[STEdGeST]

16 hours ago, Fingernip said:

They replaced my TC for the bucking and flares. Ask them to disable the lockup solenoid and see if it still does it. 

I certainly will Monday morning. Thanks